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A general theological question...

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Celebthôl

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As long as the mods are okay with this and if it starts getting heated (which is most likely will in time as all these types of subjects do) then i'll in no way object to its being closed. :)

Anyway:

I can't remember the exact way this is quoted, but its something like:

"Did God create good and evil, or was good and evil already in existence?"

(Thats the basic idea, but theres a proper quote about it which ill get tomorrow).
 

Thorondor_

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I tend to think that labeling good and evil is highly subjective, since, very often, "good" conditions/events/persons lead to iddleness/lazyness, while evil conditions/events/persons (sometimes) generate an impulse towards the good.

To answer more directly the question, if good and evil do have an objective existence (not only in our mind) then I believe them to be created, and not to exist by themselves.

P.S. May this thread be blessed and kept out of harms way :)
 

Celebthôl

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Well when i say good i mean along the lines of helping people, caring for people, etc and when i say bad i mean along the lines of murder, rape, pilliging etc.

Theres a quote that i heard not to long ago (within half a year ago in fact) that really made you think about this. I cant remember it and none of my mates who should know it can remember either. But it wasnt just a question of whether something exisited without Gods involvement, as thats easily answered, but was more a case of was God influence at all when creating everything...

(If that makes sense?)

Thanx for the blessing :D
 

Arat Macar

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This thread is right up my alley, area of interest. I can give a much longer answer if you want but the basic Idea of your question has been posed for eons and the basic Christian response is as follows:

The Bible tells us that God ceated something out of nothing and the something God created was good. We are even given some details about what God created. From this we are told that God did not create evil but that by creating "good", anything that followed or lay outside that creation would have to be "other than good."

As part of the "good," God created sentient beings with free will (praise and worship from robots who have to praise and worship is not what God was after). Free will means, however, that these beings can do "good" or "other than good" as they wish. The beings make some "good" choices and some "other than good" choices which creates an ongoing presence of "other than good" in the creation.
 

Thorondor_

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From this we are told that God did not create evil but that by creating "good", anything that followed or lay outside that creation would have to be "other than good."
How come anything that followed God's creation was not good? And to what do you reffer to as being outside the creation?
 

Celebthôl

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Please, makes as long a post as you wish, i created this thread to get other people opinions etc. . .

If im right i believe that Arat means things that went against what God intended. I.e. the Devil, and refusal to worship God etc. We were created to worship God that was in our creation, but us lacking in worshipping God would be outside Gods creation. I believe thats what is meant?
 

Barliman Butterbur

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Celebthôl said:
As long as the mods are okay with this and if it starts getting heated (which is most likely will in time as all these types of subjects do) then i'll in no way object to its being closed. :)

Anyway:

I can't remember the exact way this is quoted, but its something like:

"Did God create good and evil, or was good and evil already in existence?"

(Thats the basic idea, but theres a proper quote about it which ill get tomorrow).
Oh boy — OH BOY — don't be surprised when this thread gets shut down FAST, as soon as the faintest whiff of it reaches the mods, and especially the Head Mod...

This discussion is dangerous — like lying down on one's back in the middle of a busy midnight street... But anyhow, this is my take on good and evil:

They are the bookends of man's behavior and do not exist otherwise. God (whose existence has yet to be proven) had nothing to do with it. **runs like hell down the street, vanishing into the general darkness under the trees**

Barley
 

Thorondor_

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They are the bookends of man's behavior and do not exist otherwise. God (whose existence has yet to be proven) had nothing to do with it.
Well, this thread presumes the existence of God. Imo, I don't think you are right; good and evil exist as a choice also for angels/devils. And I would say He judges humans based, primarily, on their moral behaviour.
 

Celebthôl

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Barliman Butterbur said:
Oh boy — OH BOY — don't be surprised when this thread gets shut down FAST, as soon as the faintest whiff of it reaches the mods, and especially the Head Mod...

This discussion is dangerous — like lying down on one's back in the middle of a busy midnight street... But anyhow, this is my take on good and evil:

They are the bookends of man's behavior and do not exist otherwise. God (whose existence has yet to be proven) had nothing to do with it. **runs like hell down the street, vanishing into the general darkness under the trees**

Barley
Hahahaha! Thems your opinions and are respected :) besides, its not a case of knowing, its only a case of believing and what you base that belief on. There IS no hard evidence here...infact no evidence at all, so therefore it would be futile to argue. Im just interested in WHY you believe what you believe.(Hence the "theologicalness" of it all :D)

Tho im sure you are right, thats why i want this to remain as clean as possible, i want to prove it can be done. We're all adults here and should be able to act thus.

Thorondor_ said:
Well, this thread presumes the existence of God. Imo, I don't think you are right; good and evil exist as a choice also for angels/devils. And I would say He judges humans based, primarily, on their moral behaviour.
No, it's not about whether God exists or doesn't, its theoretical.

I.e. IF God exists, did he create good etc etc...is what i mean.
 

Gothmog

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The Mod's are aware of this thread and have been discussing it. Unfortunately it is a Religious thread unconected to Tolkien and therefore not permitted on TTF.

This type of thread is better suited to Project Evil Therefore this thread is now closed.
 
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