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Any topic?!??!? Anyone!?!?!??!

Confusticated

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Is there anyone who wants to debate ANY topic with me?

I am aching for a debate. It's always a hell of time finding someone... except in that danged tournament!

But how about a good debate without too strict a deadline? Judging not necessary, but ok if you want it.


ANNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE?

Inderjit wanted to but he has disapeared.


Beleg?

*sigh*

I've always thought I had a hard time finding people because they wouldn't take me seriously.... I was not competition enough... but according to that danged tournament thing I was the best in the tournament! Even though I wasn't really the best I can't be THAAAAAT bad if I got so many points can I? Please... I will give it me best! :D
 

Manveru

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Nóm said:
I've always thought I had a hard time finding people because they wouldn't take me seriously....
yeah, welcome to the club... though I got used to not being taken seriously;)
whatever... I'm serious very rarely:p :D

being serious, just for a little while... I guess too many people are busy right now; some strange "busy time" has come... I know I should (I should say rather ought to) be busy, too, but... hmm... oh, and debates are pretty "time consuming" thingies... but I'm sure someone will be willing... after all, I see it's only for fun (nothing like that-<silent murmur here>-debating tournament...)

:D
 

Aulë

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Nóm said:
I've always thought I had a hard time finding people because they wouldn't take me seriously.... I was not competition enough... but according to that danged tournament thing I was the best in the tournament! Even though I wasn't really the best I can't be THAAAAAT bad if I got so many points can I? Please... I will give it me best! :D
On the contrary, it's because you are too good.
Only the very best (such as the Snagas' and Gothmogs') stand a chance against you. Everyone else just doesn't have the skills and knowledge that you have. :)

I'd debate you on a Dwarf topic, but I have no free time at the moment. :(
 

Scatha

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Sure Nom, I'll take you on if you like. :)

Get us someone to host and provide us with a topic, preferrably LOTR or the Sil and I'll try and give you a hard time. ;)
 

Confusticated

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Great Scatha! I'm already looking for a host! :) Thanks a lot.


Maybe some other time, Aule.

Manveru... yeah I think people are too busy.
 

Confusticated

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Hmm.... if anyone reading this has a topic in mind and is willing to host just let us know and the job is yours!

And Scatha will get to chose his side since I invited him.

hmm... Scatha, if you have a topic in mind we could also do that.
 

Scatha

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Picking a topic myself would be a little unfair, I think. :)

I might be inclined to chose something elven. ;)

A host, including a topic on THE book would suit me fine.
 

Confusticated

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Scatha said:
I might be inclined to chose something elven. ;)
hehe!

But good news: Beleg has agreed to be our host. He should be posting the topic soon. I don't know if it is a LotR or Silmarillion topic, but I reminded him that its important the topic not be something that I'll have an advantage in because I have read HoME.
 

Beleg

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Topic

Topic:

Tolkien notes,

...The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men).
Are Elves correct in their perception of death as a gift of God?

Scatha gets the choice of sides.

The debate will go on for 15 days; that is if both sides agree with the time limit and more importantly the topic.
 

Confusticated

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Thank you Beleg.

I am fine with the topic so long as it is okay with Scatha.
 

Scatha

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Thanks Beleg. :D

In the eyes of the elves, death is indeed a gift of the gods, for this would mean not having to share the burden of the world, feeling what damage is being done to it and suffer because of it. The elves are connected to the world , as a fish to water, poison the environment and the fish suffers for it, or even dies in pain because of it. To the elves, this fits them as well, except for the part where they die.


from the encyclopedia of Arda

The Nature of the Elves

Both Elves and Men are the Children of Ilúvatar, and so have much in common, but there are also great differences between the two peoples. Of these, the most significant is that Elves are 'immortal', at least while the World lasts; they do not suffer ageing or disease, and if they are slain or wither with grief, they are reincarnated in the Halls of Mandos in Valinor.

Although, unlike Men, the Elves must remain in the world until its ending, they are not bound to Middle-earth. They may if they wish take the straight road, and sail into the Uttermost West, a road that is barred to mortals.

Immortality (for a lack of a better word in the eyes of Men) is as much as a burden to bear, as being connected to the world upon which you live, so this is not an easy life. Due to this circumstance, for the elves, to die is a gift from the gods indeed.


More correctly, Elves don't suffer ageing in the same way as Men. In fact they do age, as Tolkien makes clear in his Letters. There, he says, 'The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 245, dated 1963).

Thus, for an elf, they are correct in their perception of death being a gift.

Have fun, Nom :D
 

Confusticated

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That is a good explaination for the elvish perception, but this doesn't make that opinion correct.

One could argue the same thing for men. They do not view death as a gift, but as a doom. They suffer sickness and aging, and many of them even a fear of death. It was the dread of death which lead to the the Numenoreans, most skilled, and wise of all Men, to fall under shadow. Even in a place of such beauty and wealth as Numenor, the short life of Men was not enough for them. In their perception immortality was best, and surely a gift that was denied to them.

For this reason, and also because elves do not understand the minds of Men, or know what it is like to grow old quickly, and view the short life of Men as a grief, I think they are too ignorant to make the call - do not really know what they are talking about. Heck, they don't even know where Men go when they die.


I'll argue that death was originally intended to be a gift, but because of the Fall of the race, it became a doom. Death is only a gift for those few men who gave up life willingly. This lasted a few hundered years and was lost. Aragorn doing this was a last flicker of true elvish wisdom and nobility among Men. For others, the gift is more like a curse.
 

Scatha

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Ahh yes of course, but you have to realise within this concept, that the elves know nothing else then their longevity. They consider all of the other races as 'short-lived'. Plus, in the defense of my statement, the numenoreans were less inflicted by the 'curse' of dying, as they lived sizeably longer then most humans races do.

What brought the true downfall of the Numenoreans, was their greed to have what the elves possessed, the longevity. Yet without the thought of which anguish and suffering this brought upon the elves, for having to live this long. Neither elf nor Man got to chose their lifespan, aside from the numenoreans who did have a choice. I fail to see where having a choice is a curse, but would truely consider this a gift, to be able to determine the time of your own death.

In the light of this point, I would say that the numenoreans were the ones with a true gift, that of a longer life then the average humans and the ability to die "at will".
 

Confusticated

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Scatha said:
Plus, in the defense of my statement, the numenoreans were less inflicted by the 'curse' of dying, as they lived sizeably longer then most humans races do.
Where they really? I would think this "curse" effected them even more since it did turn them against the Eldar, and it did, with encouragement from Sauron to an aging king, cause their attack on Aman.



What brought the true downfall of the Numenoreans, was their greed to have what the elves possessed, the longevity. Yet without the thought of which anguish and suffering this brought upon the elves, for having to live this long.
Where is this anguish of the elves for having to live so long?

Where is the suffering (neverminding the normal sorrows of life and loss which all people suffer) of the elves for which immortality within Arda is to blame?

Neither elf nor Man got to chose their lifespan, aside from the numenoreans who did have a choice. I fail to see where having a choice is a curse, but would truely consider this a gift, to be able to determine the time of your own death.
Had all (or even most) men been able and willing to always give up life in Arda, then yes it would be a gift. But men are such that life is never long enough for them, and they try to hold on to in and in turn their span decreases. It is death itself which they fear, and this fear makes death a thing to be feared. Because of that death is not a gift.

In the light of this point, I would say that the numenoreans were the ones with a true gift, that of a longer life then the average humans and the ability to die "at will".
They were the few Men who did experience the gift... but even they were unable to appreciate it for long. Looks like men will always want more time in the world eventually.... and the more bliss they live in, the more they want to enjoy it for longer.


If you give people a lovely garden full of flowers to enjoy with sight and scent... it is gift... but if you make them so that they are allergic to the pollen and being around the pleasant flowers start to sneeze and have a hard time breathing.... they will soon shun the flowers and maybe in their minds more of them will psychosomatically become more allergic than ever, but desire to enjoy the flowers all the same... and will resent the allergy. They will resent it all the more if they can see people among flowers from afar out their windows. The flowers were still given as gift, but they no longer function as one.

That is how death is for men. They were made such that they feared it and were unable to appreciate it for what it was. Death... gift in intention.... curse in function. The elves only know it was intended as a gift... they do not understand how for men is is not one.
 

Mrs. Maggott

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Nóm said:
Is there anyone who wants to debate ANY topic with me?

I am aching for a debate. It's always a hell of time finding someone... except in that danged tournament!

But how about a good debate without too strict a deadline? Judging not necessary, but ok if you want it.


ANNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE?

Inderjit wanted to but he has disapeared.


Beleg?

*sigh*

I've always thought I had a hard time finding people because they wouldn't take me seriously.... I was not competition enough... but according to that danged tournament thing I was the best in the tournament! Even though I wasn't really the best I can't be THAAAAAT bad if I got so many points can I? Please... I will give it me best! :D
Have you a subject in mind? A premise? If you don't mean "immediately" but, say, after Pascha(Easter) - I'm soooo busy now - I will accommodate you, if you consider me good enough. Run a few "possible topics" past me and we'll see what we can come up with. I have one or two that I always wanted to play "devil's advocate" with (Aragorn was wrong to abandon Frodo at Parth Galen; Aragorn was selfish in seeking to wed Arwen - and not just selfish about her, but also regarding his duty to his people to produce an heir; Denethor knew about the Ring when he sent Boromir to Rivendell (with instructions to bring it back to MT with or without the Bearer); you get my drift). I'm not all that thrilled with The Sil because the topics frequently involve matters that transcend human/elf judgment, but if you have a topic or two (or three) from it, I will by all means consider same.

Let me know. :p
 

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