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Aragorn and Frodo - does it make sense?

Snaga

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Frodo and Aragorn at the end of the film: just after Boromir has tried to take the ring. I just can't make this scene work. This is the script (probably a transcript I think):
<Frodo, in the "shadow world," climbs up onto the Seat of Seeing atop Amon Hen. He looks over the stone seat and sees the Dark Tower from afar. The image rushes towards him and his vision rise to its pinnacle—where the burning Eye of Sauron stares back menacingly. Frodo, rushing to remove the ring, falls off the Seat of Seeing and lands on his back. He sits up, trying to catch his breath>
<Aragorn approaches>
Aragorn: Frodo?
Frodo: <startled> Huh?! It has taken Boromir.
Aragorn: <intensely> Where is the ring?
Frodo: Stay away!
<Frodo runs from Aragorn>
Aragorn: Frodo!
<Frodo stops>
Aragorn: I swore to protect you!
Frodo: Can you protect me from yourself?
<Shows the ring on his palm>
Frodo: Would you destroy it?
<Aragorn, looking at the ring, slowly approaches Frodo. The ring begins to whisper>
The Ring: Aragorn...Aragorn…Elessar...
<He reaches out. With both hands, Aragorn closes Frodo’s hand over the ring and pushes it away>
Aragorn: I would have gone with you to the end, into the very fires of Mordor.
Frodo: I know. Look after the others, especially Sam. He will not understand.
<Aragorn sees Sting’s blue glow. He stands suddenly>
Aragorn: Go on Frodo. <draws out his sword> Run. Run!
<Frodo leaves. Aragorn walks out from beneath the Seat of Seeing and finds a troop of Uruk-Hai>
How does Aragorn know Frodo is leaving?
 

Snaga

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Ok, at the very least this scene is rushed and confused.

This is a pivotal moment, where Frodo decides to head east. Aragorn is supposed to be protecting and helping him lets him go with scarcely any discussion.

And whats that 'Where is the ring?' line for? Why would he say that?

Even that 'It has taken Boromir' line from Frodo is oblique to say the least.

Am I the only one who really has a problem with this scene? I hope it is expanded in the DVD, because as it stands its I just don't buy it.
 

PRH

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Yes, I always thought it was very rushed with confused motives. That "where is the Ring" line is just to make the audience wonder/think that Aragorn is also tempted by the Ring even though there was almost no indication of that throughout ("the same blood runs in my veins, the same weakness" being the only potential indication). It's a pretty weak afterthought. To have made that work, Aragorn should've had some other signs of temptation before. The scene probably would've worked if right after Aragorn closed his hand, Frodo had said something like "It will take them all, one by one. I must do this alone" (kind of repeating Galadriel)(also it would contrast his "I cannot do this alone"). Then Aragorn could've continued with "I would've gone with you..."
 

Tar-Palantir

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I can see where there may be some confusion as to how Aragorn knew that Frodo wanted to go alone. I think PRH's suggestion for one more line of dialogue would clear things up.
 

PRH

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I guess PJ thought Frodo and Aragorn were saying it with their eyes or something. How do you say something so specific that has never even been suggested with your eyes? It would've possibly worked if the 'going alone' move had been foreshadowed or suggested before in some way but it was totally out of the blue. Okay, Galadriel does say "to be a ringbearer is to be alone" but everyone thinks she means that in a spiritual/emotional sense, not literally physically alone!
 

bunnywhippit

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I've been confused about this as well. But when i saw the film last time i managed to make it work (i also think that extra line of dialogue being mentioned would probably come in handy)

And whats that 'Where is the ring?' line for? Why would he say that?

Even that 'It has taken Boromir' line from Frodo is oblique to say the least.
I don't see it as Aragorn being tempted by the ring by asking where it is. Rather, Frodo says "it has taken Boromir" obviously referring to the Ring, and then Aragorn asks where it is - maybe he thinks Boromir has managed to take it. But Aragorn asking that question does have elements of the temptation theory, i can see that. But i prefer to go with the Boromir-Taken-It idea. That's how i see it anyway.

As for the original question - How does Aragorn know Frodo is leaving? - an unspoken understanding? That's how it comes across. It is a little weak, but i don't think much would be done for the dramatic tension if they'd sat down and had a big discussion about it. ;)

"thats a non-verbal way of saying, "bub-bye"
LMAO! Very good Harad.
 

Ged

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I thought this was one of the most powerful scenes in the whole film.

Frodo doesn't need to tell Aragorn what he is thinking. Aragorn already knows it. That is why there is the apparent absence of dialogue that you guys are complaining about.

Go back to the book. Apart from Gandalf, who are the TWO most interesting and important characters? It has to be Frodo and Aragorn. Frodo because he is the Ringbearer, and Aragorn because his destiny is tied up with the quest.

I always felt that there WAS such an understanding between Frodo and Aragorn. Aragorn is strong and brave, but he is also fundamentally noble. He WOULD understand how Frodo feels.

The more I think about this, the more I really like the treatment of the film. Frodo HAD been feeling for a while that he had to leave the company (that is made plain in the book). Aragorn WOULD have sensed this. How noble and wise it was of Aragorn to be able to resist the temptation of the ring, to go on to his own unsure destiny, and yet let Frodo go on to his.
 

Snaga

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Well, I certainly take on board the dramatic tension points. But I think you could have done something. For example Frodo could rush off towards the boats, and Aragorn could walk along side trying to reason with him, end the sequence with orcs appearing perhaps...

'It has taken Boromir' ... no surprise, shock or anger ... just
'Where is the ring' ... in an intimidating way. Why ask that? Not 'is it safe', or 'are you alright' or similar ...
'Stay away' & runs off ... not surprised! ...
'Frodo, I swore to protect you' ... that's OK too
'Can you protect me from yourself?' ... cool
Shows him the ring ... I don't think so. If you're worried, you don't offer it up!
'Would you destroy it?' ... a bit iffy, but I'll allow it!
Aragorn approach, whispering, closes palm ... OK
I would have gone with you to the end, into the very fires of Mordor.
... No no no!

He's just said: I've worked out you want to go to Mordor on your own, and I'm not going to question that decision at all. He has no other quest: he's not going to Minas Tirith, or claiming the kingship at this point remember.

Surely even if you accept that Aragorn is intuitive enough to get what Frodo is thinking (I can buy that), he would not let him rush off on his own without any discussion/ rangerly advice or whatever? I'm not saying he wouldn't let him go at all, just that he would be a bit less rash.

Luckily the Uruk-Hai turn up just at that moment to smooth over this preposterous behaviour!
 

Ged

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Well, maybe it isn't a question of just letting Frodo run off without any discussion.

What evidence have you (in the book) that if Aragorn HAD have known in time of Frodo's intentions he would have tried to stop him? I don't actually think he would have done. He was wiser than that.

Tolkien once said re a possible Disney movie (ugh!) that he didn't mind them changing the plot so much as them changing the nature of the characters. I think Aragorn's character is pretty good in this film.
 

Snaga

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You misunderstand me perhaps. There are two areas to clarify.

Firstly I don't think Aragorn would try to stop him, but he would want to ensure that he was well-prepared, and I think he would want 1 or 2 companions to go with him. This would need discussion. In the book, they had set aside an hour for Frodo to think about what to do, and then he was to come back and they would have that discussion. Boromir and the Uruk-Hai between them stop that calm consideration: Aragorn never gets to talk to Frodo.

Secondly I'm not doing one of those 'the film aint like the book, so I hate it forever' rants. I love the film!:)

Aragorn in the film is generally very similar in character, although there is a big difference in his attitude to the kingship. But in both cases at Bree he stresses the value of knowing the seriousness of your enemy and predicament and acting carefully as a result. At this moment in the film, I think he deviates from this unaccountably.
 

PRH

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Originally posted by Variag of Khand
He's just said: I've worked out you want to go to Mordor on your own, and I'm not going to question that decision at all. He has no other quest: he's not going to Minas Tirith, or claiming the kingship at this point remember.
Wow - I never thought of this! Yeah, in the book they were trying to decide whether to even press on toward Mordor from Parth Galen but in the movie, that wasn't even up for debate so it makes even less sense for Aragorn to let Frodo go on alone (M&P were of course not a concern at this point), especially given the lack of Aragorn's temptation for the Ring shown up to that point.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Surely even if you accept that Aragorn is intuitive enough to get what Frodo is thinking (I can buy that), he would not let him rush off on his own without any discussion/ rangerly advice or whatever? I'm not saying he wouldn't let him go at all, just that he would be a bit less rash.
Well, if it weren't for the orcs - who knows how soon Frodo would've gone on alone. They probably would've discussed things for several minutes.

Originally posted by Ged
The more I think about this, the more I really like the treatment of the film. Frodo HAD been feeling for a while that he had to leave the company (that is made plain in the book). Aragorn WOULD have sensed this.
Ged, that's fine that maybe Aragorn and Frodo were on the same wavelength but the big problem is that the movie didn't show that Frodo was even considering going it alone before his decision to do just that. It was only vaguely alluded to with Galadriel, which really wasn't enough to have it all hold together.

I guess when it comes down to it, you have to tie this Amon Hen parting scene closely together with the end of the mirror scene if you want the motivations to make sense.
 
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Harad

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I guess when it comes down to it, you have to tie this Amon Hen parting scene closely together with the end of the mirror scene if you want the motivations to make sense.
There's no question that the movie juxtaposed those two scenes for the "go it alone" scenario. Aragorn knew this intuitively even if he did not get verbal cues from either Galadriel or Frodo.
Furthermore the movie makes a BIG DEAL of the tendency of Men toward failing with the Ring.
Frodo has just barely escaped from Boromir, so the idea that Aragorn would be sensitive to his fear of any Man companion is perfectly reasonable.
 

Ged

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I'm trying to remember if, in the film, when F and A meet on Amon Hen, Frodo actually tells Aragorn that he is leaving. Aragorn says "I would have gone with you to the end", but was that preceded by any other relevant dialogue? My recollection is that it wasn't, so Aragorn essentially has second guessed what Frodo's intentions are. (Or he has been warned by Galadriel, who he has been close to for many years.)

VOK: didn't mean to make you into a film hater!

Regarding whether Aragorn would have tried to persuade Frodo to take along extra companions, well he didn't get the chance. As soon as the "I would have gone with you" scene ends the Uruk-hai appear. So Aragorn wasn't exactly "rash". Events unfolded very quickly (just like in the book).

PRH: I agree the film doesn't make clear where the fellowship are headed. But it isn't exactly outlined in the book either. There is a general theme - get to Mordor and destroy the ring - in both book and film, but in neither is it discussed in detail HOW they would get there. My own feeling from the book was always that Aragorn yearned to go to Minas Tirith.
 

Snaga

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Originally posted by Ged
I'm trying to remember if, in the film, when F and A meet on Amon Hen, Frodo actually tells Aragorn that he is leaving. Aragorn says "I would have gone with you to the end", but was that preceded by any other relevant dialogue? My recollection is that it wasn't, so Aragorn essentially has second guessed what Frodo's intentions are. (Or he has been warned by Galadriel, who he has been close to for many years.)
Ged - check out the transcript I posted to start the thread. Its not stated directly.


Originally posted by Ged
PRH: I agree the film doesn't make clear where the fellowship are headed. But it isn't exactly outlined in the book either. There is a general theme - get to Mordor and destroy the ring - in both book and film, but in neither is it discussed in detail HOW they would get there. My own feeling from the book was always that Aragorn yearned to go to Minas Tirith.
The point with this is that in the book although the path to Mordor is unclear, Aragorn and Boromir set out to go Minas Tirith. Aragorn then has a problem when Gandalf is got at in Moria - he's leading the quest but destined for Minas Tirith and the kingship. That's a dilemma.

In the film, Aragorn has 'chosen exile' and is not going to Minas Tirith at all. And in the preceding scene to Boromir trying to take the ring, Aragorn talks about crossing the river as soon as they have rested, and then heading east. (You may recall Gimli goes off on one about the Emyn Muil, and the marshes and Aragorn tells him to recover his strength!) There is no dilemma.

And that's why I'm not happy with his sudden volte-face from being the whole company eastwards, to letting Frodo go alone. He suddenly abandons the quest, and he has no other plans. Its totally illogical. IMVHO of course!:)
 
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Harad

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Its not illogical.

Two things happen to cause the "about face."

1. Boromir goes ballistic.
2. The Orcs attack.

Aragorn's "chosen exile" in the movie is little different than the book. In the book Aragorn has done a tour of duty in Gondor, incognito, but does not chose to make a claim on the kingship until after the successful conclusion of the War of the Ring, 40 years later. Had there been no War of the Ring in his lifetime, I dont believe he would have attempted to horn in on the stable government of Gondor.
 

PRH

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Originally posted by Harad
Two things happen to cause the "about face."

2. The Orcs attack.
Not until after the decision was made.
 

Snaga

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PRH - I agree.

Which just leaves 'It has taken Boromir' as the single thing that makes Aragorn think 'Ah well obviously that means the rest of us can just go home.' Not 'lets sort out that no-good Boromir' or even 'OK lets get rid of anyone we can't trust'; just 'See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya!' Its not a rational reaction.

Aragorn's "chosen exile" in the movie is little different than the book. In the book Aragorn has done a tour of duty in Gondor, incognito, but does not chose to make a claim on the kingship until after the successful conclusion of the War of the Ring, 40 years later. Had there been no War of the Ring in his lifetime, I dont believe he would have attempted to horn in on the stable government of Gondor.
The point about Aragorn isn't really that he's chosen exile or not, but that in the film he has no other plan, once he resigns from the quest. Again of course he bailed out by the Uruk-Hai kidnapping M&P - 'Aha, now I've got something to do, although I did rather fancy a pint at the Prancing Pony.'
 
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Harad

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Well...no overt plan. But wasnt there some pointed exchanges between Boromir and Aragorn earlier? Boromir thought of Aragorn as a rival. This tells me that Aragorn had thoughts about Minas Tirith.

Secondly the book has some explaining to do for giving Aragorn that easy out. If he has no fixed plan in the movie, its because he says:

"And you have my sword." And he meant it.

Finally, the FINAL decision is made when the Orcs attack. Who know where further discussion would have lead.
 

PRH

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Originally posted by Harad
Finally, the FINAL decision is made when the Orcs attack. Who know where further discussion would have lead.
Frodo: I know. Look after the others, especially Sam. He will not understand.
Sounds pretty final to me. Frodo was going off alone, all that's left was some possible words of wisdom to send him on his way (which got interrupted).
 

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