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Bakshi vs. Jackson

Merrick Took

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You guessed it, this thread is where you come to insult Ralph Bakshi's Lord Of The Rings (1978). It's also where you compare it to the recent film (and hopefully where I find someone else in this world who loves Bakshi's film as much as I do, rotoscope included).

Merrick Took
 

TheJospeh

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Cartoon stunk.

However, it handled a lot of scenes far better than Jackson's movie did.

Sincerely,
The Joseph
 

Merrick Took

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I think it did a great deal many things better than the movie did.

Merrick Took
 
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Harad

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if you search back in this forum..and it isnt the easiest thing to do...you will find at least one, maybe more, threads with this theme. Its not a bad idea to bump it up again.

I too liked the Bakshi movie, but it no way compares to the new movie because:

1. animation will never approach the power of live action
2. the resources, both monetary and computer, were so much more for PJ
3. Bakshi had the plug pulled on him making the last third of his movie pathetic...aside from the Frodo, Sam, Gollum sequence.

That being said there were a lot of good things in the first 2/3 of the movie. Some comments:

1. the opening sequence...he may bave gotten the idea wrong as to who make what rings but it did capture the essense of the history. PJ did it much better or course--PJ's Last Alliance being excellent.

2. Both left out Bombadil..Both replaced Glorfindel

3. PJ copied almost shot for shot the Nazgul in the Shire hedge and the Bree-Nazgul inn room sequence. Note that in the book the Nazgul did not invade the Bree room.

4. The "Bilbo the Monster" sequence in Rivendell is done very effectively in PJ showing the power of modern filmmaking techniques compared with the animation.

5. Bakshi had Frodo effectively defy the Nazgul at the Fords of Rivendell, something PJ is flayed alive in this forum for leaving out.

6. Bakshi has a Winged Balrog, nonsensible if you consider it then falls into the Chasm. On the other hand, I believe that the Balrog drags Gandalf down by its whip, something not done by PJ.

7. Bakshi had more instances of Gollum sssneaking after the Fellowship after Moria, something cut unaccountably by PJ.

8. Bakshi was more faithful to the book in the Parth Galen--breaking of the Fellowship sequence: e.g. he kept Frodo wearing the Ring to cross the Anduin, PJ did not. Here is one instance where I liked the PJ version better than the book.

9. Comparing the two movies after Parth Galen is impossible, because PJ hasnt gone there yet. Bakshi's Treebeard and Helm's Deep are pretty bad because, IMO, of the running out of money issue.
 

MikeB

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Howdy Harad

I'm assuming you know the Bakshi film is not strictly animation.:confused:

Where were the beds the nazgul killed in Bree? Or does the movie have me remembering something that didn't happen in the books?

Laters,
I'm not the MikeB who uses a space in his name:cool:
 
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Harad

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Yes I do know about rotoscoping. I guess I call it animation as shorthand. Rotoscoping helped a bit..eg. the intro, the chase at the Fords of Rivendell, Moria, but most of the good stuff was animation.

In the Book, I was reminded (by Kuduk?), that it was probably NOT the Nazgul but some mortal confederates who mussed up the beds in Bree. (I reread that part and agree).

Welcom MikeB and thanks for pointing out who you arent.
 

aragil

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I still say that one of the failings of Bakshi was in line delivery. Frodo jumping up and down like a schoolgirl when he sees Gandalf, and Gandalf pausing after every sentence for dramatic effect being two examples. What did I time Gandalf at in Moria?

That being said I still like Bakshi, and own it on both VHS and DVD. But PJ did much better.
 

Ossiriand Blade

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Gimli and Legolas

One thing I found much more effective in the Bakshi movie was the depiction of Legolas and Gimli,Gimli is well-just nicer,you,feel that you actually like him,much better than Jacksons charicarture,Legolas also seems much more Elvish than Orlando Bloom his reaction to the Balrog-dropping his bow creates an impression of genuine shock that here is this ancient thing from Angband alive in front of him.I dont know how Jackson will work the Legolas/Gimli relationship that runs through LOTR they both seemed entirely one-dimensional in his FOTR.
 
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Harad

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Aragil,
You timed Gandalf reacting to Pipsqueek's question /comment in Balin's tomb, accurately at 6 second's. That was when I first realized I was in the presence of genius.

Frodo jumping up and down in Bakshi is little different than Frodo running and jumping into Gandalf's wagon in PJ, IMO.

-s
 

Merrick Took

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Leonard Rosenman's score is simply amazing, even surpassing that of Howard Shore, in my opinion.

I also appreciate how arsty and dramatic Bakshi tries to be, while remaining true to the story. He changed less than Jackson did, that much is for certain. I don't see what most people's problem is with it? Boromir didn't look quite right, I know, but all of the voices were stellar! Legolas and Gimli, as someone mentioned, were much better in the Bakshi version (Bloom was obviously chosen simply because he was extremely talented with the bow, I wish they could have gotten a talented actor that looked like an Elf). Elrond isn't ugly in Bakshi's version. I could go on and on.

Merrick Took
PS "We are going Pippin" Was excellent. If you didn't like it, you don't understand Gandalf's character very well. Bakshi captured both his compassion and his irritability so much better than the other film.

Another thing, Peter Jackson doesn't let us see Merry and Pippin's devotion to Frodo, and they are just sort of along for the ride. Why did they even go as far as Bree?
 
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Snaga

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Faithful to the book or not I'm afraid I cringed repeatedly at the Bakshi film.

My 5 year old son loves it, but I have to put it in the Godzilla category of 'so awful its funny'. Sam is a hoot!
 

Merrick Took

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At least he was homely and had the country bumpkin accent like he should've. I admit to liking Jackson's version more, but Bakshi's was amazing, especially for 1978.

Merrick Took
 

aragil

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Merick- I didn't say that I dislike Bakshi, I said I like PJ's version better. PJ had Gandalf being equally compassionate as Bakshi- he has all of those gazes of affection towards the Hobbits, particularly Bilbo and Frodo. Gandalf was irritable towards Pippin in the movie- especially after the corpse-down-the-well and Dragon fire-work episodes. I'd say that PJ captured Gandalf's humanity well. Too well even- look at all the Tolkien fans on this website that complain about Gandalf bumping his head in Bag-end! Or look at how many people complain about Elrond being too irritable. I liked PJ's version, and I liked his Elrond (who was not pretty, but who also was not ugly) and Gandalf. I will not say that people who did not enjoy these characters don't understand them.

Merry and Pippin may come along for the ride in the PJ version, but they are no less devoted to Frodo. Merry and Pippin help Frodo to escape the Nazgul at Farmer Maggot's, protect Frodo with their bodies at Weathertop, leap bodily onto the troll after it skewers Frodo in Moria, and finally sacrifice themselves so Frodo can escape at Amon Hen. These are not exactly as they were in the book, but they are certainly instances of extreme devotion. If I had to say anything about Merry and Pippin, I would say that PJ has them as more devoted to Frodo than in the book. However, I agree with you that they didn't seem to have much motivation for joining Frodo, certainly not as much as they had in the book or even in the Bakshi cartoon.

Ossirian Blade- the buzz on the net (especially on this site) is that much of Lorien was cut, including (especially) the developing friendship of Legolas and Gimli. I guess they can develop a little during the Death March across Rohan, but I'm afraid that Helm's Deep is going to suffer because of the lack of development in Fellowship. But never fear, buzz also has it that much of Lorien will be added back in in the DVD!
 

Snaga

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Originally posted by Merrick Took
At least he was homely and had the country bumpkin accent like he should've. I admit to liking Jackson's version more, but Bakshi's was amazing, especially for 1978.

Merrick Took
I'm not too sure about this. I think you always need to judge a director's achievement against the era (and therefore technical and artistic developments) and the budget.

Would I be right in guessing Bakshi didn't have a lot of money to work with?

The reason I ask is that '78 was the era of Star Wars and Alien, so creating convincing other worlds was in full swing. I think that with lots of money, a convincing adaptation would have been possible.
 

Merrick Took

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Aragil, I agree. When Merry and Pippin did each of those things in the film, they brought tears to my eyes. Jackson did an excellent job of directing those scenes. I was just annoyed at the fact that they didn't have the "We're going with you Frodo." discussion, as it is one of my favourite, and it was done incredibly well in the Bakshi film.

Merrick Took
 
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Harad

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Bottom line I liked the Bakshi movie, but you have to admit it went kerflooey at the end.

Furthermore, the fact that is was a "flop" resulted in its being left half done.

One can not overemphasize the importance of PJ's succes, which assures that the whole story will finally be seen on film.
 

Merrick Took

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I am glad there is at least one person who likes LOTR78 as well. I realize that the end, and especially Treebeard were messy. But Helm's Deep, was just amazing. And what an emotional scene, Theoden screaming "Gandalf", as the orcs close in. The music is amazing.

Merrick Took
 

lilhobo

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Originally posted by aragil
I still say that one of the failings of Bakshi was in line delivery. Frodo jumping up and down like a schoolgirl when he sees Gandalf, and Gandalf pausing after every sentence for dramatic effect being two examples. What did I time Gandalf at in Moria?

That being said I still like Bakshi, and own it on both VHS and DVD. But PJ did much better.
WTF??? failings of Bakshi was in line delivery???? LOTR78's soundtrack being better??? you have to be kidding me! its Hogan's heroes :eek:

For a cartoon version the character development and body language was superb,

1. the behind the fire view of Gandalf and Frodo, as gandalf asks if the ring had already gotten hold of frodo
2. gandalf trying to tease and spook sam with his fingers
3. gandalf is more irritable but still caring as in the Moria scene with pippin
5. developing Aragorn's character at bree was AWESOME, "look foul but act fair" speech is whats missing in PJ's. Leaving the aragorn development to Armon Hen was a travesty
in PJ's
4. elrond was justs about perfect (although giving "this task was appointed for you frodo, if you dont find a way noone will" is better with Galadriel)
5. Galadriel was just about perfect, her happy disposition contrasts so much with the long side looks of cate blanchett. PJ would have been better just telling the audience that galadriel was tesing Frodo instead of the glances, and then he was testing her with the ring. For a cartoon, the flowing arms of Galadriel and her dancing was the best, although i prefer her to go xray too :D
4. sam is great as the comic relief and merry/pippin more serious is the way to go! the scene of sam and frodo paddling off
and sam saying "we shall see Mr frodo, we shall see", and then seeing gollum drifting after them was AWESOME
5. Gollum's "sthhhhhneakin' " scene was AWESOME
6. the voice acting is so much better; the softer British accent is so much better, with their throaty r's.......the American Morrrrrrrrrdor in PJ's is kinda freaky lol :D
7. Saruman dialogue was so much better
8. the crippled black riders, and their manners and "red" eyes and their power to draw frodo at the Ford was magnificent

there are so many nice touches in Bakshi's version it makes it so much better, PJ's is just to much action and not enough story telling for a first of a trilogy. Pj should have left half of Saruman's scenes for TTT, and shortening Armon Hen when Orc attack needds to be shorter
 

Merrick Took

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Mr. Hobo, you are very smart for a homeless hobbit with no VCR!

Merrick Took
 

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