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Christian views on Homosexuality (in general as well as in the church)

DGoeij

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Originally posted by Elendil3119
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..."

No easy way to get around that.
I know it's a rude way to jump into a debate, but do you realize it sounds like somebody wrote that to create a sense of authority around himself?
 

Elendil3119

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Originally posted by DGoeij
I know it's a rude way to jump into a debate, but do you realize it sounds like somebody wrote that to create a sense of authority around himself?
Are you talking about me, or Paul?:confused: If you're talking about Paul, nearly all serious Bible scholars and theologians agree that Paul was directly inspired by God to write 'his' books of the Bible. That's all I'm saying. Of course, it is a bit ironic that the words being called into question (about homosexuality) were written by Paul (the author of the verse above), but it makes sense if you think about it. If you believe in the Bible, you must also accept 2 Timothy 3:16, which says that "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching...".

Did that make sense? :D
 

Marah Seph

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" Love the Lord your God" And "Love your neighbor as yourself" are not "commandments" from the Christ. You see, as you should read in context, he was summing up all of the commandments in the old testament. Do these not do so? If you love God you will do as he says. He says that sex outside of marrage, wether or not with someone elses wife, is unhealthy. "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have recieved from God?" 1Corinthians 6: 19
" Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question; 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?'
"Jesus replied; " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your sould and with all your mind.' This is the fist and greatest commmandment. And the second is like it:' Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'"Matthew 22:34-40

Perhaps it is do not kill. In that case though, God would have sinned himself. "The Lord God made garmets of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." Genesis3:21 But you could argue that as in, we didn't have skin at all before handm; that is exceptable I can deal with that. But what about his commanding of the Jews to kill to cover for their sins? see Leviticus 4:1-12 Then what would the point of having this God to save us from ourselves, if he tells us to do it? If you can't believe one part of the Bible, why believe any of it?

SamWeis, and StarFlower, perhaps you should read and figgure it out for yourselves rather than just believing what you are told?
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Marah Seph
" SamWeis, and StarFlower, perhaps you should read and figgure it out for yourselves rather than just believing what you are told?
I have my christian faith - you have your christian faith.
 

Lúthien Séregon

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Sex is not love!

Jesus said... "Greater love has no man than he that lay down his life for his friend."

Jesus did not say... "Greater love has no man than he that has sex with the most people the most often."

Love is not sex!
Why does Christianity make being of opposite genders such a big deal, if it truly does not think love is about sex? If it didn’t, it would recognise homosexuality as love, and therefore not sin. I certainly didn't say any thing about love being about sex.

Let me get this straight... are you judging God for being judgemental? God is perfect... not because he is perfect according to our standards but because he's God! You point at God as if hes wrong. But if he is God it doesnt matter, Just being God makes him right. (Not that he is wrong... but even if he was...)... Please use God logically in your arguments... you must either deny his existence or ackgnowledge that he is right in everything he does...
I’m not “accusing God” of anything – I’m just showing how there can’t be a God that is judgemental to the point where he honestly abhors homosexuality as you say, if you say that he is “perfect” – because I am showing more love and kindness than he is.

I'm not getting into a "God is great, God is good, so therefore everything he says is right" argument, because it's useless.
 
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Eliot

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Originally posted by Samweis
Are you God that you are able to judge about my faith?
If you could tell me where I said that, I'd give you $10 million. ;)

In my previous post, I'm stating the obvious. [color=sky blue]Removed[/color]

[COLOR=sky blue]No insulting, please.[/color]
 
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Ithrynluin

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Originally posted by Elendil3119
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..."

No easy way to get around that.
Of course, that's why it was quickly scribbled into the Bible. To give everything in it lots and lots of weight. To be more readily and faithfully obeyed by the masses and masses of generations to come.
 

Elendil3119

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Originally posted by ithrynluin
Of course, that's why it was quickly scribbled into the Bible. To give everything in it lots and lots of weight. To be more readily and faithfully obeyed by the masses and masses of generations to come.
Ithy, by the time we reach that point in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), it has already been established that Paul is a follower of Jesus. He was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damascus and became his disciple (I won't go into detail...you can read it in the Bible, if you so wish :)). So we know that what Paul was writing was inspired by Jesus, meaning that it was essentially Jesus speaking through Paul. That's how I understand the apostles.

That said, if you believe the Bible, you believe the above verse to be true. Simple as that. :rolleyes: Of course, the whole issue relies upon faith in God and what He says in the Bible, but everybody has faith in something...There's really no point in me arguing about verses in the Bible which you don't even believe in. :D
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Eliot
If you could tell me where I said that, I'd give you $10 million. ;)

Nobody has the right to judge about my faith - but God.

... and before you start posting quotes out of the bible - the bible has been written by human beings not by God.



In my previous post, I'm stating the obvious. [color=sky blue]Removed[/color]

[COLOR=sky blue]No insulting, please.[/color]


You are wasting your breath with "Removed - No insulting, please" - it would had been better to edit it and remove "In my previous post, I´m stating the obvious" really.

So you are insulting me again - it seems that you like to offence other people.
 

Samweis

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It has no purpose to speak about homosexuality in an internet forum, if others are insulting homosexuals only.
 

Elendil3119

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Originally posted by Samweis
Nobody has the right to judge about my faith - but God.

... and before you start posting quotes out of the bible - the bible has been written by human beings not by God.
The Bible states that it was written by God. And if it wasn't written by God, why the heck do I/you/we believe in it??
You are wasting your breath with "Removed - No insulting, please" - it would had been better to edit it and remove "In my previous post, I´m stating the obvious" really.

So you are insulting me again - it seems that you like to offence other people.
It was ithrynluin that edited the insult out. That's why the font is blue. It seems to me that you like to take offence...;)
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Elendil3119
It seems to me that you like to take offence...;)

Hi Elendil3119,

lol - yes, I´m very thin-skinned in this issue - I´m trying myself not to offend other people in an internet-forum, because we don´t know each others in reality.
It could have very bad after-effects in reality, if somebody deals in bad way with someone else in an internet forum.

So I´m really annoyed about some members here on this tolkienforum - and I will leave it.
 

Lúthien Séregon

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So I´m really annoyed about some members here on this tolkienforum - and I will leave it.
I'm sorry about your decision Samweis, I hope you choose to come back. :(

There's really no reason why people shouldn't take offense when others insult something that they don't understand. I honestly do think that some people see homosexuality as sick or perverted, because they don't really understand it ( otherwise, they wouldn't be calling it a sin :D ).

Can people to really come up with a good and justifiable explanation for why homosexuality is such a sin? Its "unnatural" status has already been refuted, and that site does show that the Bible has a tendency to be misinterpreted.
 

Beorn

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Remember that no one here can judge the piety of another. People's beliefs and interpretations are all different, so to hold them up to your beliefs is unfair.
 

Snaga

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There appears scope for a whole new thread about whether the Bible is literally word for word the 100% pure expression of Gods will for all time. It might be better to start that as a seperate discussion, because it does seem wider than a question about homosexuality.

Since, however, there are many Christians who do not believe that the Bible is this, and will take a broader 'written by Man, inspired by God' view, it is certainly not necessary for anyone to concede this argument based on the view of those who interpreted Christs teachings after his death. What is abundantly clear is that this is not an issue that exercised Jesus' mind terribly much. It doesnt seem that he had felt that this was something he needed to preach about as much as, for example, the greed of the excessively wealthy. I always find it remarkable how little air-time that central message of Christ gets by comparison!

Of course though this would be in keeping to his lack of condemnation of those other great sins of our time: MS and diabetes! Thank you Thorin, I am sure my diabetic sister will be greatly interested to know that her illness is something she must repent for!

Those of you who do not believe it is a matter of genetics must answer honestly where they think they can choose to be homosexual. If it is a 'temptation' ... how is it you have never been tempted by it?? The answer is simple: you are not gay so you find the idea very off-putting. Its not some choice, made by sinners. A persons s.e.xuality is something very much intrinsic and central to their being. And this explains again why the 'condemn the sin and not the sinner' argument doesnt overcome the offense caused by your remarks. One might just as well call 'blackness' a sin, but declare your love for the person inside the skin.

But in the mean time, those of us with open minds and open hearts will know with a certainty that whatever may be ossified in writings some 2000 years ago, the message to 'love thy neighbour' is a more powerful guide which needs to no byzantine logic and defiance of reality to tell us what is a simple truth: that people who do know harm to others deserve to be accepted and loved for who they are, and encourage to lead full lives, free from hostility and discrimination.
 

Samweis

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... according to your PM Marah Seph,

a discussion is to exchange opinions, but here in this thread many people proclaim to know the universal truth and deny my right of my own beliefs.

I´m not just a little bit offended - I´m upset, because in such way is a discussion not possible - such behaviour deprives every base of a discussion between to equal parts.
 

Marah Seph

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Hmmm, I agree with Snaga1, this topic should be dropped in preference for the one that this thread was made for. Thanks Snaga!
I do have a question, what about those who are ? Where would you catagorize them?
Where was it proved that lity isn't unnatural? I think I missed that one. I don't need the bible to tell me that it is. I see this in the desease that come from it, aids, not a good thing. That is another reason why I think polygomy is unnatural. So, if you would be so kind as to impart this info to me?
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Marah Seph
I see this in the desease that come from it, aids, not a good thing. That is another reason why I think polygomy is unnatural. So, if you would be so kind as to impart this info to me?

Could you explain your thoughts more cleary, Marah Seph?

Be careful with your words - you don´t know if somebody is HIV positive or has AIDS on this forum.
 

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