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Christian views on Homosexuality (in general as well as in the church)

LĂșthien SĂ©regon

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But in the mean time, those of us with open minds and open hearts will know with a certainty that whatever may be ossified in writings some 2000 years ago, the message to 'love thy neighbour' is a more powerful guide which needs to no byzantine logic and defiance of reality to tell us what is a simple truth: that people who do know harm to others deserve to be accepted and loved for who they are, and encourage to lead full lives, free from hostility and discrimination.
I completely agree with everything Snaga's said! :D Everything!

I don't need the bible to tell me that it is. I see this in the desease that come from it, aids, not a good thing.
http://www.subversions.com/french/pages/science/animals.html
 

Thorin

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Originally posted by snaga1
Of course though this would be in keeping to his lack of condemnation of those other great sins of our time: MS and diabetes! Thank you Thorin, I am sure my diabetic sister will be greatly interested to know that her illness is something she must repent for
I'm sorry for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway (and if a mod wants to slap warning points on me, so be it).....Why do I feel like I need to talk like I'm speaking to five year olds on this thread? How did you get THAT from my post, snaga? I said that being a genetic abnormality, homosexuality can be compared to MS and diabetes. It wasn't planned to be, it just happens to our genetic makeup...I in no way said that MS and diabetes were sins. Read a bit before you go off on a childish tangent and say stupid things like the above quote.

Good grief people. I teach little kids all week and have to explain myself in simple, easy ways to make them understand. I shouldn't have to do that with adults on this website on my time off. Get over your "I'm being bashed by the mean, close- minded Christian", attitude and be reasonable, would you?

Due to the fact that there is no hope for any sort of normal discussion without certain people getting their undies in a knot and turning this into a battle because they can't understand what they are reading (or claim that I can't explain myself right the first time)...I am removing myself from this discussion. Much to some of your pleasure, I'm sure.

For the record....I have no problems with homosexuals, nor do I feel that I or someone else should stop what they are doing be they practicing homosexuals. It is their choice and it is between them and God. Some will choose to mince and twist the scriptures to suit their lifestyle and ease their conscience, perhaps...I do not believe in that and have no reason to doubt the validity of the scriptures on this matter, despite the reasoning on the link that was provided. We are all entitled to what we believe, praise God, and ultimately God is the judge of all of us.

Take care.

Thorin.
 

LĂșthien SĂ©regon

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Okay, you said this:

I have no problems with homosexuals, nor do I feel that they should stop what they are doing be they practicing homosexuals. It is their choice and it is between them and God.
But you also said this:

I said that being a genetic abnormality, homosexuality can be compared to MS and diabetes.
So you've really gone and said that it is both a choice and a genetic abnormality ( both of which are assumptions I think are wrong, by the way ), which is contradictory. No wonder you feel that people have misunderstood your posts. :rolleyes:
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Thorin
I'm sorry for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway
The second part of this sentence, makes the first part absurd - in my point of view.

I think we should think about rules in this "Guild of Religion" to be able to go further in it.


Otherwise I recommend to close this "Guild of Religion"
 

Eriol

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I would think that a good rule for the Guild of Religion would be: "no preaching". Of course, this would have to include secular preaching; this thread has plenty of preaching, religious and secular.

A lot of preaching, and little profit for either side of the discussion :(.
 

Thorin

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Originally posted by LĂșthien SĂ©regon
So you've really gone and said that it is both a choice and a genetic abnormality ( both of which are assumptions I think are wrong, by the way ), which is contradictory. No wonder you feel that people have misunderstood your posts. :rolleyes:[/COLOR]
And you don't have to agree with it. I'm not here to preach, but to state my view. I have more respect for someone who disagrees and says, "Deal with it I'm going to do what I want" then someone trying to use the very Book that condemns such behavior to justify it and criticize me for using that same book to state my views.

And no, it is not contradictory. We can't determine the cards that are dealt to us by nature. I believe homosexuality is a result of a sinful nature. God doesn't hate homosexuals, nor is it a sin to be a homosexual. However, the Bible makes it plain about homosexual behavior...In other words, sexual abstinence is what is expected. It is genetic to have homosexual tendencies, it is a choice to act on them....like a lot of other things in life.

No contradiction if you truly read all my posts for what they've been saying.

And Samweis, I am sorry for saying it due to the potential problems it might cause, not because I'm ashamed of saying it.

That's my last post here....Of course I said that last time to.
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Thorin
... the very Book that condemns such behavior
... you are doing it again: you claim that your interpretation of the bible is the universal one.


A discussion is not possible, because you vilify other interpretations with this claim of the universal truth.


Like I said before you have your comprehension of the bible - I have my comprehension of the bible - but I expect that you donÂŽt judge about my faith - like I canÂŽt judge about your faith.
 

LĂșthien SĂ©regon

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That's my last post here
Even so, I'm still going to reply...

It is genetic to have homosexual tendencies, it is a choice to act on them
When something is genetic, there's not a lot people can do in regards to making "choices"...it becomes something that is intrinsic and natural. Did you honestly choose to be heterosexual? I doubt it.

In other words, sexual abstinence is what is expected.
Any law that forces people to change their personality, their sense of self, on the basis of some ancient prejudice that is supposedly "truth" should be regarded as highly questionable, at the least.

I extremely doubt that there is a God that is actually so opinionated to expect that of people. Luckily there isn't such a being, there's just discrimination based on emotion.
 
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Beorn

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Originally posted by Thorin
Some will choose to mince and twist the scriptures to suit their lifestyle and ease their conscience, perhaps...I do not believe in that and have no reason to doubt the validity of the scriptures on this matter...
Thorin, I think you should realize that your interpretation is just as 'mince[d] and twist[ed]' as other people's in their eyes...
 

Feanorian

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... you are doing it again: you claim that your interpretation of the bible is the universal one.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality 10 b will inherit the kingdom of God.
Is there any way in which you can interperte that in a favorable light of homosexuality? (not meant as a challenge, just pointing out that as far as The Bible goes homosexuality is wrong).
 

Thuringwethil

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Thank you

Not exactly the easiest possible thread, but here goes..

Ithrynluin, Omnipotent_elf, Wonko, Sarah, LĂșthien SĂ©regon, Starflower, Samweis, DGoeij, Beorn, Snaga1. Thank you for your words.

Some others.. No use to address names, you know who you are. No use to write what I think about you, either. It would be censored in zero time anyway.

How can it be a sin when I hold another woman and tell her I love her? How can it be a sin when I offer her comfort and closeness, raise her self-esteem, give her a reason to live? How can it be a sin when I ease her pain and calm her hate against the world? And how can it be a sin when she does everything this to me?

There was a time when I could not accept myself. My life was empty, except hate. I hated the world, other people, God, myself. First and last myself. Then I found love. Love between two women. And I mean love, not sex. That love made me a better human being, every way. I even embraced several values that are central to christianity, though I'm no more christian myself. I rank high those christians (and other people with faith) who accept me and my way of love. Others.. As I said, no use to write it. But I wonder why some choose to speak and write words that hurt me and others. They can't change me. Why they want to cause pain?

Those I named above, once again, thank you.
 

Marah Seph

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Thuringwethil, I know that I must be one of those that offended you. I am deeply sorry for this. But, I was more or less talking about the relation. Praise God you found love. I could care less if you two love eachother. I have no problem with love, none what so ever. Go ahead and do so. My point was for the purly physical aspect of . I'm a bit biased I am sorry, but I have only had the unfortunate experience of the dark, ugly side of reproduction that I won't get into detail here. So, on the whole, I think it is healthy to be abstinence. :) that be all.
 

Samweis

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Originally posted by Feanorian
Is there any way in which you can interperte that in a favorable light of homosexuality? (not meant as a challenge, just pointing out that as far as The Bible goes homosexuality is wrong).

I donÂŽt want to start to argue with you Feanorian - if you are interested in another interpretation of the bible - just read the link which I gave several posts before --- I would like to add, that I havenÂŽt wrote this paper - I have posted the link to show that other interpretations of the bible are possible.


By the way - favorable light is you diction not mine.
 
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Ancalagon

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I couldnt be bothered reading any further than the first few posts of this thread as I imagine it continues along the same lines throughout. Anyhoo, here are a few questions to ponder.

I know a lot of you are rattling off that Gods hates it, the bible say's its wrong and Christians should pray for all such sinners, however, the fact remains that homosexuality, at least the inquisitiveness of human nature presents itself at a young age, usually without a prompt, nothing to do with upbringing, social influence or whatever. The very time when young people are most vulnerable tends to be the very time they are faced with choices about sexuality that they do not understand. I guess nothing is wrong in this, because it is part of the confusion and angst of being a teenager. However, it is usually at this point when society offers its own opinion to these confused youngsters. This comes in the form of jibes about homosexuality, media commentary, religious condemnation and parental ignorance. So, when a teenager hits the point of sexual awareness, innocence and exploration is then overwhelmed by social influence, that in general tends to demonize homosexuality. What I wonder is this;

1. Where does thought of attraction to the same sex derive from?
2. Why does it happen at such an impressionable age and at a point when the mind is least corrupted?
3. Why does society suppress and ultimately fear what can only be described as a natural part of a growing up?
 

Éomond

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Those are some good questions Ancalagon, and I'm not saying that your saying this, but people:

GOD DOES NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS!
did I spell that right?

Thuringwethil - That's awsome you found love, with anyone it's alright. But I have to agree with Marah Seph on she said, so read her post.

Samweis - I'm sorry to hear that you might be leaving TTF, that stinks. But anyway, don't take this personally or being rude on my part, but you didn't even give Feanorian a chance, you just dissmissed his idea and told him to look at yours? He said he didn't want to challenge you or anything. But, hey, again, sorry if I could have "hurt" you in anyway, or this post offends you, but, my faith and testimony has totally been "denied" and I was soo hurt, but just talk to the people you have the problems with.

Ok, what-ever, I don't know what I'm talking about, sorry, just, well, uh......
 

Samweis

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Hi Éomond,

O.K. - IÂŽm not an English native speaker and it is very difficult to speak about such sensitive issue in a foreign language - so let me quote what the bishops of the EKD (Evangelical Church of Germany) said according 1 Cor. 6,9 - I will quote it from the former given link:

The statements in 1 Cor. 6,9 and I Tim. 1,10, that reject homosexual relations between men and boys as being in contradiction to the will of God - and are thus clearly opposed to a practice that was widespread in ancient Greece - is something with which one must clearly agree without reservations according to the biblical image of human beings. Of course, one must immediately add that this rejection of the sexual abuse of children applies not only to homosexual but equally to heterosexual practices. And even if the terms "young male prostitutes" and "homosexual offenders" were to refer primarily to the aspect of commercial activities (and less to considerations of child abuse), they would also apply equally to heterosexual practice.

For me is important that it applies equally to heterosexual pratice, too.

The bishops of the EKD came to the conclusion as follows:

The debates in society in general today and in the Protestant church in particular are still more strident and difficult because the conflicting groups and associations stand for two different hypotheses which tend, at least, to be irreconcilable.

- Homosexuality is a leaning which cannot be changed and does not need to be corrected either. Attempts to change it are an obstacle to or prevent the necessary acceptance of oneself. Their only consequence is that people are deformed or even broken.

- Homosexuality is a leaning which can be corrected and needs correction. Attempts to change it require great patience and perseverance. But change is possible and leads to liberation and finding oneself.

Each group can refer to examples and evidence of its hypothesis, although these cannot prove that the hypothesis is of general validity. If there is in fact no either/or with regard to the causes, it is hardly surprising that the same must be said of the possibility and desirability of processes for changing homosexuality. Then the objection to the two contradictory hypotheses would "only" be their claim to absoluteness(19).

If it were possible to abandon this claim to absoluteness and to recognise the - at least partial - justification for each of the opposing hypotheses, this would considerably reduce the stridency of the disagreement within the church and make the debate more objective. Naturally, this would make great demands on both sides, because it is a question of basic positions, each of which has a major influence on the particular understanding the persons supporting it have of themselves.

The surmounting of this alternative would have several, far-reaching consequences for life and common life in Christian congregations and churches as well.

- The various homosexual people, who are aware of and understand their own inclinations either as an unchangeable characteristic or as a defect in their development which came about in the course of their life history, would be able to permit and accept one another with their specific awareness and interpretation of themselves, without having to insist that a uniform view (namely their own) is valid for all.

- The other church members and the church authorities would have no possibility, cause or even duty to ascertain, in general or in reference to any particular case, whether it is a matter of an unchangeable or changeable leaning, one which needs correcting or one which should be accepted. They then could and should leave this self-examination and conscientious decision to each individual. But they should stand up wherever necessary for the protection of and respect for such conscientious decisions. This means that they should not fail to intervene when homosexual people are subjected to pressure because they accept their leanings, or because they are looking for a possibility of changing them (based on their faith).



... and I was asking about to abandon this claim to absoluteness.


According the "heath" in such threads the bishops said this:

In the course of history, homosexual men and women have often been the target of mockery, contempt, rejection and persecution and even of physical annihilation. In this way they have suffered grave injustice. The story of the suffering of homosexual people reaches into the present in part as well. In this context, Christians and churches have often not come forward to defend those under attack, but have rather shared in the wrong done them. Only when they admit and accept their share of the guilt will the churches be able to clarify their attitude to homosexuality and their relationship to homosexual people, and to reach a free, impartial opinion on the questions to be solved. Part of such a free formation of opinion may also be for the churches to come to a critical assessment of particular expressions or aspects of the homosexual way of life on the basis of their faith and doctrine.

....

Many homosexual people openly express their sexual inclination and want in this way to put an end to the "game of hide and seek" from which they have been suffering for a long time. In doing so, homosexual people frequently use the terms "gay" and "lesbian" to identify themselves although these were applied to them by others in the past as expressions of contempt. Thus, in a conscious and provocative way, they adopt the role of victims assigned to them. Considering the situation of the persons concerned, it is understandable that their "coming out" sometimes takes place in strident tones, but as a rule this does not make acceptance easier; on the contrary, it reinforces prejudices and often creates new obstacles. The removal of barriers and a greater acceptance of homosexual people will only become realities if all the parties involved set store by respect for one another.



This will be my last post in this "GoR"
 

Ciryaher

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Originally posted by Samweis
I cannot share your point of view of faith - this is really an insult, because you imply that I`m a pervert.
Lifeling was not using the term "pervert" as a noun, but rather as a verb. "Pervert" as a verb means to "alter from the original to a corrupt mimicry". An example of this usage would be that Morgoth took Elves and perverted their form and nature to make them Orcs.
 

Ithrynluin

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Okay, so we've come to the conclusion that homosexuals are Orcs. :confused:

Now what?

;)
 

Thuringwethil

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I feel sick.

Me and many friends of mine have been insulted severely in this thread. By what rights? Because some book says so?

If you have faith, it's your faith. Keep it to yourself, don't mess with other people. If your god doesn't approve your homosexuality, that's just it, between you and him. He doesn't have authority over me. Neither do you.

I have certain opinions about people who believe. Not nice opinions. I'm not preaching them here. You see, I don't want to act as if I knew everything, and I don't want to randomly hurt peoples' feelings.

I'm glad some people have understanding, I thank them for it. But some others have hurt me deeply. And though I'm used to it, it still sickens and hurts, every time.
 

Ciryaher

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Well the title of this thread is:

"Christian views on Homosexuality"

Anyone who knows anything about Christianity, Judaism, or Islam knows that homosexuality is generally condemned by followers of those religions. You are being somewhat contradictory by saying that you are insulted by what others think, but you ignore the fact that they may be insulted by what you think.

The best solution for feeling insulted is to deal with it.
 

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