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Thorin

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Originally posted by Hawk
My personal belief, even though I don't believe there is any scripture I can quote this belief from, is that after death we are judged to go to heaven or hell, but I believe that those that go to heaven have the ability to still come back among the living and continue doing good. This would explain the idea of Guardian Angles.
Welcome to the forum, Hawk! Unfortunately, many people like yourself have never really studied the bible to see what it has to say. They have excepted the word of tradition and priest and pastor without testing the beliefs for themselves. However, just because many believe a certain way, that doesn't make it correct. Mainstream Christianity has blindly accepted ambiguous texts and arguments to bolster there belief that the soul is immortal (which is basically derived from the Greek concept of dualism that was foreign to the Hebrews and Jews until around the 2nd century BC when some Hellenistic Jews began to adopt the belief). Study it for yourself and see that the Bible does not support such a belief. And Guardian angels are just that, the created angels of God. They are not the departed spirits of loved ones. Even if the soul were immortal, there is no scriptural support for such a belief.


Originally posted by Hawk
All of a sudden I looked up for what I think was the first time since I had walked in, to this day I’m still not quite sure why. But I look to one of the front doors of the church and I saw a door open, no one walked in, and I could see that there was no one behind the door, it had just opened seemingly on it’s own. But it is my belief that it was my Grandfather. Don’t ask me to explain why I believe this, but I do, there is not a doubt in my mind that is who it was. So as I said I believe that people do go to heaven, but after they do they can come back and still influence or lives in some ways.
I can't judge your sincerity. I can say, however, that according to scripture, it was not your Grandfather. An angel coming to comfort? Possibly. A demon in disguise? Just as probable. Your Grandfather? Definitely not according to the Bible. If you have any other comments or would like some Biblical proof for what I'm saying, you can send me a private message.
 

Grond

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Thorin, biblical support or not... I'm sure I feel my Mother's presence from time to time. I also realize the Bible was written by MAN, inspired by God but still having the potential for MAN's fallibility.
 

Thorin

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Dear Hammer of the Underworld,

As a Christian, where do you get your concepts to believe what you believe? From the Bible. I would have no concept of life after death, Satan and salvation as many Christians understand it were it not for the Bible and those who have read it, interpreted it and passed it on. It doesn't make sense to glean a belief system from a source, and then deny that source as a basis for information....To say that there is error in man's interpretation of the scriptures is true. However, the scriptures were given by inspiration and in many cases, direct verbatim from God. You can't claim to be a Christian and follower of Jehovah God and ignore the very foundation we know Him from. It doesn't make sense.

Grond, we've known each other for a while and I have the utmost respect for you. I am not trying to be callous or ignorant in what I am saying, but do you have some sort of factual or reasonable support that you do indeed feel your mother, or that it is your mother you feel other than your feelings? Satan has made a living of fooling people to make them believe whatever they want and whatever he wants. Unfortunately, our feelings alone are a poor basis to judge spiritual things. That is why we need the scriptures. They are our only source of determining what is truth and what is error (I am speaking as a Christian and what I believe. I'm sure many atheists and pagans have their own interpretation of what is truth and error)
 
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Walter

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What I strongly dislike is when proponents of any religion go proselityzing people with a sword in their hand.

PS: allegory encouraged...
 

Amichi

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I think my intent has been skewed over the series of quite a few posts.

My point was thus:

Modern Christianity oftentimes portrays itself as the one true religion, handed down for eons in pure form. This is false, as the religon has evolved due to outside influence.

I am not arguing the validity of Christianity as a religion. Any religion people are willing to devote themselves to is a valid religion. Wicca, being only around 50 years old, is a valid religion. Ancient Sumerian is a valid religion. Pure nature worship is a valid religion, Aztec / Mayan religion is valid, and Amichi's SelfStyled Faith™ is a valid religion.

I do have issues with Christianity, but those do not make it an invalid religion. It might make it unpalatable to me, but I still accept it as a viable path of worship.

It's just not one I'd ever choose. *c*

As for Adam and Eve... I cannot accept that as evidence, as there is no circumstantial proof of these individuals, while there -is- proof of an evolutionary progression of civilization. Personally? I do think that civilization is older than 5000 years. But as I cannot prove it, I will not offer it as something to consider.

As for the hand me down religion... yes, it is quite possible. But in that case.. wouldn't other religions have done the same? Thus we're back to 'who was first'. *chuckle* Which is an argument no one can win.

An honest question, though.. if you all know that Judaism is different from Christianity, why not go for the base religion itself? It would seem to me that this would be a more accurate portrayal of what your god's wishes are.
 
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Aslan

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An honest question, though.. if you all know that Judaism is different from Christianity, why not go for the base religion itself? It would seem to me that this would be a more accurate portrayal of what your god's wishes are.
It is a common Christian belief that Judaism is also Christian. It is believed that Jesus is the one who is prophesied by the Jewish prophets to be their Messiah. So there are 2 types of Christians: Jews and Gentiles. Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah would not be practicing "true" Judaism according to this belief.
 

Amichi

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So the difference is basically whether or not the individual in question believes in Jesus as a prophet? Interesting.
 

HLGStrider

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Please refrain from insulting me, and.. if you want to call me vague and unaccreditable, please prove yourself to be clear and accreditable first.
Amichi, I didn't say you were vague and unaccreditable, I said your info was. Unless you are the text book you took these things from (or website or document) I don't think that was a personal attack. It's like critisizing your spelling.. it isn't you, though I suppose it could be taken personally.

I thought about using the Adam and Eve point, but I didn't think you'd accept it so I didn't, and it turns out I was right, and Thorin got the gaff instead of me... sorry Thorin.

The Jewish belief was origenally carried by a single family... or two or three families. The belief in the one God was complete but it was often mixed with a belief of several other Gods, sometimes with Jehovah, if you wish to call Him that, being chief, other times just one of many. According to the Bible it was then entrusted to one man named Abraham who had a very impressive string of offspring.

I didn't read the link, to be fair... My computer doesn't load off links very well, I was in a hurry to get off line having been on for a good hour, and I am dealing with you, not some group. I personally despise posting links to back an arguement (Half because I am such a lousy online surfer that I can't find my own... :rolleyes: ;) )and I don't normally read them... or look at them in the case of pictures. I figure that it would just be where you were getting what you were saying to me, so I could get a summerization by listening to you.

Modern Christianity oftentimes portrays itself as the one true religion, handed down for eons in pure form. This is false, as the religon has evolved due to outside influence.
There can only be one true religion, and it is probably the purest... with the exception of maybe Judaism, which was not really a religion so much as a race with a mission... or before that a family with a mission.

Some proof I find interesting is for a totally unrelated subject that was a big factor in the Bible. The Flood. The Flood is our explanation for the Grand Canyon, the ice age, the extinction of dinosaurs. It is highly important.

Almost every culture has a flood story. The Toltec indians actually report leaving to come to the Americas in their wall carvings after a great flood. A similar story is found in China, Hawaii, and Babalon. The stories are all a little different (If find the Toltec the best. It also includes a tower of Babel account). You can say that this is the Christian and Jews absorbing other religions, or you can say that this is actual fact. I think with so many cultures the fact is more likely. There is also a lot of fossil evidence for a large flood. I used to want to go into Geology because of it.

Thorin, I think Hawk's belief in an angel being there is accreditable... the spirit of his grandfather, no, but an angel yes. Angels are highly biblical, and I don't see why he couldn't have seen one. It very well could've been a demon, I suppose, but you are incredibly pessimistic.
 

HLGStrider

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PS.

Amichi, if you don't believe our God exists then why would you mind us praying to Him? You seem violently opposed to this inane babbling???

Now that I'm done teasing you, I'll answer my own question with another question. Do you believe that all God's exist and that they each control their own group of people? I've heard of such believes. I just wanted to see if that was you.
 

Grond

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Thorin, I won't even try to answer your question as you seem to be inferring that the feeling that my mother is watching over me is Satan-inspired.

I will say that the Bible, written by Men and inspired by God (emphasis on written by Men) is the roadmap by which I try to lead my life. My Faith is what makes the decision as to what road I take. I feel my Mother's presence watching over me daily. I pray to my God in thanks for her presence and her love which never dies (after all, it is a part of me, her son). You may call that Satan inspired... I call it a Heavenly gift.
 

HLGStrider

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I'm not taking sides on this argument, it takes more of theologian than me and I can see both sides. However, I sincerely doubt that Grond has been contacting evil spirits. At the same time I don't really believe in ghosts.
I think Thorin could be a little more understanding about the feelings of people who have lost loved ones... as long as they are not going to Seances... seances? Mediums and devil worshipers in search of their loved ones.
 

Grond

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Personally I'm astounded at Thorin's attitude. I know absolutely where my Mother is currently residing. She is with God and looks down on loved one's in this world. That doesn't necessarily mean that her spirit need walk on this spiritual plane. Where in the Bible does it say that loved one's in heaven may not "watch over" loved ones left behind? Nowhere... that's where.
 

Thorin

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Originally posted by HLGStrider
I think Thorin could be a little more understanding about the feelings of people who have lost loved ones... as long as they are not going to Seances... seances? Mediums and devil worshipers in search of their loved ones.
First of all, I never did say that Hawk's grandfather could not have been an angel. In fact that seems most likely.

Second, for your info, HLG, though you of course didn't know, I lost my 20 year old cousin last weekend, and a good friend of the family a few days ago. I have been taking my friend's death very hard right now and I will be playing and singing much at his memoriam on Monday. I am grieving right now.

However, I can be comforted to know that they are both resting awaiting the trumpet call of Christ when He returns to earth a second time. This is what the Bible teaches and I am comforted by the fact that he is resting from his labors (as the Bible teaches) and not roasting in hell, or looking down from heaven at his family and friends suffering over his loss.

Third, Grond, I apologize if I offended you. I know it is comforting to believe that your loved ones are watching over you. However, how would you feel if you slipped into drug abuse and destroyed your health and family? What if you got in a horrific car accident and became a drooling vegetable? What kind of a God would allow a loved one in heaven to be able to look down and see the horrible suffering on their family?

The facts are, my friend and Hammer, is that the Bible does not teach that. God sends His spirit and angels to comfort us in our time of sorrow. If you want the Bible texts that show what I'm talking about, I am more than happy to send them to you in a PM.

Please accept my apologies and understand that I meant no disrespect to you. I apologize if I came off as callous and insensitive...
 

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The Flood is our explanation for the Grand Canyon, the ice age, the extinction of dinosaurs.
The Grand Canyon was formed through erosion. The colorado river flows through it, and has eroded a canyon over time. The ice age is of indeterminate origin (as far as I am aware), but flooding is unlikely to cause global cooling. Flooding is a result of global warming, after all. The extinction of dinosaurs is of unknown cause, though there are many theories on it. I've not heard a flood idea proposed, though I'm hardly omnipotent.

To perhaps explain a global note of a flood... the ice age ended, and, over time, there was a definite increase in the levels of water worldwide. This would have flooded coastal cities and low lying areas. This is part of the concern of global warming, after all.. that coastal cities will flood. If the evidence that there was a flood is there, then there it is... but unfortunately, it does not validate Christianity.. as I'm sure other cultures had their own explanations for the event, arrived at independently.

To answer your question of prayer... I do not mind prayer, as long as it is not on my behalf. If I was a Satanist, would you want me praying to Satan on your behalf? That's my outlook, there.

As for what I believe... too complicated to get into. I believe in the possibility of all gods, but that does not mean all gods exist. I'm currently pursuing a number of theories, the most interesting of which involves a god only being as powerful as its worshipper's belief. I rather like this theory, truth be told, though I've yet to find any evidence for or against.

I rather like the observer effect in quantum physics, too..
 

Arathin

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Grond, you may pray for me, but just know that I too pray for you. All of you in fact. Just as I am sure you all pray for me. We all believe that the other needs to see the light and so pray for them. Neat isn't it?
 

HLGStrider

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To answer your question of prayer... I do not mind prayer, as long as it is not on my behalf. If I was a Satanist, would you want me praying to Satan on your behalf?
I might have a problem with you contacting Satan at all... it would make me worry about you, but I don't think I would care. After all, I believe that Satan exists, but while you might hurt yourself doing so it isn't going to hurt me at all... He doesn't have the power to really bless anyone... just to hurt a little, and not much because God is stronger.

The Grand Canyon was formed very quickly by a phenonmynom... phenomynom... WHY DO I USE THESE WORDS!!?!?!?!?... a process that is actually happening at Niagra Fall in a much smaller scale. After the flood when the waters started to drain there was a large inland sea dammed up around there. In fact there was another up in I think Montana which the Secular Geologist acknowledge, though they disagree about where it came from. I forget whether the dam burst or eroded, but it created a large waterfall which caused a down current which ate away at the cliffs behind it. It took I'd say about twenty years.

When I say world wide examples of a flood I mean like fish skeletons over mountains. Ripple marks... I suppose they could be explained by an Ice Age, but the flood explanation works much better.. there are really good books about this.

The flood is not proof, it is just some nice reassurance that the Bible is not just a bunch of lies.
 

Amichi

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It took I'd say about twenty years.
I was curious, so I did a little bit of research. The Grand Canyon is a relatively new phenomenon and it was formed very rapidly, in a geologic sense. However... rapid in this case is misleading to those used to judging things by a human lifespan. The Grand Canyon is a product of the last five or six million -years-.

Where'd you find your other information?

When I say world wide examples of a flood I mean like fish skeletons over mountains.
At one time, most of the eastern seaboard of the united states was a shallow sea, with the mountains being pretty close to the coast. As plate tectonics formed these mountains, I would think that they, when lower than they were, were submerged in the sea. We're talking.. 4 billion years here. To give a sense of scale...

If this were the four billionth, two thousand and second year, the year would be 4,000,002,002 OE (Origin Earth).

The rippling effect you spoke of is caused by the slow erosion of a melting glacier, too.

That being said, I'm curious as to what books you've been reading. Care to share? I am not being sarcastic; I am honestly interested. I am always willing to entertain alternate theories.
 
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Walter

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Originally posted by Arathin
...but just know that I too pray for you. All of you in fact. Just as I am sure you all pray for me. We all believe that the other needs to see the light and so pray for them. Neat isn't it?
No, Arathin, I don't pray for you. I don't feel you "need to see the light" or try to counsel you to "change your mind" for no matter what everyone of us here would say would not be due to make you change your mind.

You will do what you feel, you have to do and that's it.

P.S. But I do hope that whatever you do will turn out well for you...
 

HLGStrider

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Where'd you find your other information?
Truthfully I can't remember where I got that particular theory. It was in two different books, one on simularities between Mount St. Helens and other geographic sites, and another called "The Young Age of the Earth".

I read a lot of books. Most of them were written for younger kids, since I went through my scientific streak at about 12. There was Of Pandas and People on Biological origens, that was highly advanced. Then several books on Dinosaurs...

I read a lot.

Personally, I don't think this thread will convert anyone. It is a highly rare person who is converted by arguments. In fact it puts most people off so I don't know why I bother... most people come to Christianity for emotional fulfillment of some sort...
 
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