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Consistency between Shibboleth and FM4?

Confusticated

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The Shibboleth - Finwe meets Indis and they love eachother, and then Finwe seeks the counsel of the Valar:
So it came to pass that Finwe and Indis desired to be wedded, and Finwe sought the counsel of the Valar.
But can we assume that this is not a moving forward (from FM4) in time (or events) of Finwe seeking Manwe's counsel which resulted in the Debate, but rather that the debate had happened years before and now he is seeking counsel again?

Also in Shibboleth:
The end of the Debate was that the marriage of Finwe and Indis was sanctioned.
In its context does this have to mean that this marriage to Indis in specific was sanctioned at the Debate, or can we take this as meaning that according to the outcome of the debate, such a marriage is lawful?

Also have this from Shibboleth:
When the matter of Finwe and Indis arose he was disturbed, and filled with anger and resentment; though it is not recorded that he attended the Debate or paid heed to the reasons given for the judgement, or to its terms except in one point...
he = Feanor
Again: does this have to mean a change from FM, that now the debate arises as a result of Finwe and Indis wanting to be married?

In Shibboleth we do not hear that Miriel ever stated that she would never return to life, or even that she wished never to return to life but rather we are told she said 'not yet' multiple times, and 'I desire peace. Leave me in peace here! I will not return. That is my will.' whereas in the FM4 Miriel had claimed that she wished never to return to life.

Can we assume that Miriel did say she would never return but this is just not mentioned in Shibboleth? Or does Tolkien have her now not ever stating she wished never to return?
 

Confusticated

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One of many topics never replied to. Maybe now someone will comment? :D
 

ltnjmy

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The Shibboleth - Finwe meets Indis and they love eachother, and then Finwe seeks the counsel of the Valar:

But can we assume that this is not a moving forward (from FM4) in time (or events) of Finwe seeking Manwe's counsel which resulted in the Debate, but rather that the debate had happened years before and now he is seeking counsel again?

Also in Shibboleth:

In its context does this have to mean that this marriage to Indis in specific was sanctioned at the Debate, or can we take this as meaning that according to the outcome of the debate, such a marriage is lawful?

Also have this from Shibboleth:

he = Feanor
Again: does this have to mean a change from FM, that now the debate arises as a result of Finwe and Indis wanting to be married?

In Shibboleth we do not hear that Miriel ever stated that she would never return to life, or even that she wished never to return to life but rather we are told she said 'not yet' multiple times, and 'I desire peace. Leave me in peace here! I will not return. That is my will.' whereas in the FM4 Miriel had claimed that she wished never to return to life.

Can we assume that Miriel did say she would never return but this is just not mentioned in Shibboleth? Or does Tolkien have her now not ever stating she wished never to return?
Well, I just finished reading it this past weekend and I liked the original draft in which Feanor accidentally murdered one of the twins - Amrod/Amras - when he set fire to the ships at Losgar. In this original draft - his wife Neardanel refuses to leave Valinor and begs Feanor to leave her sons - at least the youngest - one of the twins - Feanor rants at her and says she is not a good wife. She then prophesied that in any event, one would remain with her. Then after he set fire to the ships, Feanor realized that one of the twins had remained on board sleeping...

The part on Miriel was very interesting - her "death" was more of her free will rather than something that had to come to past. Previously, I felt that her death was more "pre-ordained" when I had read The Simarillion.:eek:
 

PaigeSinclaire88

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The Shibboleth - Finwe meets Indis and they love eachother, and then Finwe seeks the counsel of the Valar:

But can we assume that this is not a moving forward (from FM4) in time (or events) of Finwe seeking Manwe's counsel which resulted in the Debate, but rather that the debate had happened years before and now he is seeking counsel again?

Also in Shibboleth:

In its context does this have to mean that this marriage to Indis in specific was sanctioned at the Debate, or can we take this as meaning that according to the outcome of the debate, such a marriage is lawful?

Also have this from Shibboleth:

he = Feanor
Again: does this have to mean a change from FM, that now the debate arises as a result of Finwe and Indis wanting to be married?

In Shibboleth we do not hear that Miriel ever stated that she would never return to life, or even that she wished never to return to life but rather we are told she said 'not yet' multiple times, and 'I desire peace. Leave me in peace here! I will not return. That is my will.' whereas in the FM4 Miriel had claimed that she wished never to return to life.

Can we assume that Miriel did say she would never return but this is just not mentioned in Shibboleth? Or does Tolkien have her now not ever stating she wished never to return?

Well, maybe this is me making associations. I tend to do that personally, often. I see the debate happening at a council or a UN type setting, only with these magnificent characters. and the fact it explicitly uses the word "sanctioned" means that they must have received some sort of punishment.

And this is another example of Tolkiens hard loves. For some reason hes fascinated by love that is not easy that faces trials. Maybe, it's a way of speaking to the reader, saying "do not take your love for granted" and the more I think on it the more this idea seems more and more plausible. And I know I bring this up often but I think it's important to note that he lived during the time of WWI and WWII and it was a time unlike any others in history. And I imagine his life was affected heavily. And I think the friendships he shows and the loves he notes of are that much more important to these stories because of that.
 

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