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Contradictions in the Bible: Inerrancy?

Athelas

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Not wanting to hijack my own thread, I am giving this debate it's own.

Let's start with killing:

* Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
* Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

* Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
* I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
* I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
* Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
* Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

I smell a little contradiction here, or at least a heap of hypocrisy.
 

Feanorian

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Athelas, I am very open to poking holes in your argument, but I must remark that you seem to have an edge on your shoulder about Christianity, which makes debating you tedious.

Notice everyone one of your verses brought in contradiction to the first two are discussing the actions and commandmants of God. He is on a completely different level as humans. Humans are sinful and thus have little right to put someone to death, because all have sinned, and fell short of the glory of God. God on the other hand is righteous and sinless thus it is his divine right to judge, as only he can.

I smell a little contradiction here, or at least a heap of hypocrisy.
The 10 Commandmants once again apply to mankind not God, and the same thing applies to the verse from Leviticus. As this is not hard to find and easily seen what makes you think men can be put on the same level as God?
 

Thorin

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Also keep in mind that the commandment is mostly about cold blooded murder, not about killing in general. That doesn't mean that we should be going around killing, but that in certain cases, it may be justified.

We also must take into consideration the culture of the people at the time. They were very war-mongering. War, conquering, fighting and extreme punishments were expected no matter what God you worshipped. God dealt with the children of Israel in this way because that is all they knew and all that they would respond to. It was expected by the people and the culture and times expected it.

God doesn't need to work in that manner anymore because times, cultures and societies have changed.

Also keep in mind that because humans wrote the books, they obviously embellished or threw God in to their human endeavors quite religiously when discussing cultural aspects as they wrote them. Don't we all embellish history without compromising the basic tenents or principles? Most of these instances are not theological, but cultural and political.

As for inerrancy. The bible is NOT inerrant. There are mistakes and seeming contradictions because humans did write them despite their inspiration and revelation from God. However, in terms of salvation issues, the plan of salvation is without fault and the theology behind it and what is in the NT is infallible. Some of the scriptures may be riddled with errors or inconsistencies but nothing that pertains to what really matters (i.e., the gospels have three different accounts of what happened at the tomb of Jesus because of different perspectives. That doesn't change the underlying concept that Christ rose from the dead)
 

HLGStrider

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I think the second of the two phrases you say contradict the rest explains them in a few of those cases.

"kill the killers" basically.

Some crimes are punishable by death.

This applies to cultures as well as men. A lot of the reasons the Isrealites killed off the peoples they conquered was because of the evil of those cultures (the offering of children to Mulloch, etc).

I'm not saying such was all the cases, Thorin's reasoning stands for probably most, but in some it was a case of punishing a culture.
 

Athelas

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I see. Genocide is ok as long as it's God's Chosen killing the Other people. Got it.
 
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Feanorian

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I see. Genocide is ok as long as it's God' Dhosen killing the Other people. Got it.
Well quite simply (dismissing your sarcastic connotations)...yes
 

Celebthôl

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Well quite simply (dismissing your sarcastic connotations)...yes
And the very second a God "commands" this (keep in mind no REAL god would command his creations :rolleyes: ) he becomes less than a God and no more than a tyrant, he would have fallen into sin from which there is no escape (apparently).

I think the second of the two phrases you say contradict the rest explains them in a few of those cases.

"kill the killers" basically.

Some crimes are punishable by death.

This applies to cultures as well as men. A lot of the reasons the Isrealites killed off the peoples they conquered was because of the evil of those cultures (the offering of children to Mulloch, etc).

I'm not saying such was all the cases, Thorin's reasoning stands for probably most, but in some it was a case of punishing a culture.
So, God seems to think that we should kill the murderers etc, yet my country doesn't, we haven't for about 40 years. There is no need for it, your God has a weird way of thinking, he gets out-humanised by us, the people that have fallen and are all sinnful. :rolleyes:

As for inerrancy. The bible is NOT inerrant. There are mistakes and seeming contradictions because humans did write them despite their inspiration and revelation from God.
Then there is absoloutly no way we can trust it, how can you put your trust into something you know to be flawed (sp)?

(i.e., the gospels have three different accounts of what happened at the tomb of Jesus because of different perspectives. That doesn't change the underlying concept that Christ rose from the dead)
What were those 3 different views? How different were they?
I mean, does one say "A man arose", the second say "A child arose" and the third say "A woman arose"? (Clearly they dont, but this is just an example)
Just how different are the observations to each other?
 

Eriol

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There can't be much of a contradiction if the first (and most important) commandment is to "Love thy God with all your heart and all your soul and all your might". This means, quite simply, that God can't go wrong for a believer; we are commanded (hehe, look at the commandments Thôl :) ) to love Him before and above anything else, including our own personal notions of justice.

That may be disagreeable for some, but it is not "contradictory".

That is the "biblical" aspect of it.

The philosophical aspect is that God is Justice, and Goodness; our personal notions of those things are pale and weak images of the real thing, God. So that if we judge God to be wrong in regard to some action, we are forcibly mistaken. It is easier to think that we may be mistaken in our judgment of some event than to think that Justice itself can be unjust, or that Truth can be false, or that Good can be evil; those beliefs would be contradictory.

In other words, if you accept that the Creator is also the source of Goodness and Justice, it is contradictory to criticize Him at all. To even attempt to do so results in a disjunction between two of God's attributes, "Creator" and "Judge". You have then:

a) A Creator who is not wise enough to judge, or
b) A Judge who is not powerful enough to create.

Note that when you judge God to be in the wrong, you are using some notion of Righteousness. If it is a personal, subjective notion, you can't apply it to God (just as you can't apply it to other people -- it is the discussion about truth in ethics that is taking place elsewhere). If, on the other hand, you assume that your notion of justice is the right notion, then where does it come from? Why is it binding for every other being, including Being itself (i.e., God?). Again, we have two options:

a) Your judgment flows from the idea, notion, or abstraction of Justice itself; and therefore it can't be unjust. But then you are falling into option (a), above -- you are saying that you are wiser than the Creator, or have more access to the idea of Justice than the Creator has, or any other explanation that accounts for the fact that YOU know what is just but the Creator doesn't.

b) Justice is one of the Creator's attributes; and then you are automatically wrong when you judge Him. That is the believer's position; it is by far less contradictory than option (a), above. Non-believers have a hard time in explaining how it is that they can know more about Justice than God; believers accept that they don't know more about Justice than God, and this is it.

Time for a practical example of these thoughts :).

Was Eru right to drown Númenor?

;)
 

Athelas

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Of course

since we're talk about inerrancy, there's the issue of which of the many versions of the Bible is the "inerrant" one, since they can't all be right:

American Standard Version
Amplified Bible
Bible in Basic English
Children's Bible
Contemporary English Version
Darby Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (Catholic)
God's Word
Grail Psalter: The Book of Psalms
King James Version
King James Version (Additional)
Message Bible
Net Bible
New American Bible (Catholic)
New American Standard Version
New English Translation
New International Version
New King James Version
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
Revised Standard Version
Young's Literal Translation
World English Bible (Hebrew Names Version)
Wycliffe New Testament


It's amazing how casually people accept genocide as long as it is "divinely ordained." They would have made good, blindly obediant little Nazis, working in the death camps for Der Fuhrer.
 

Eriol

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Re: Of course

Originally posted by Athelas
It's amazing how casually people accept genocide as long as it is "divinely ordained." They would have made good, blindly obediant little Nazis, working in the death camps for Der Fuhrer.
Yeah, that's right. Proven with the strength of a syllogism... That is probably why most Christians were being the victims of the genocide, while "enlightened people" were filling the ranks of the Nazi Party.

:rolleyes:

As for the list, we have the original texts; these are the inerrant ones. "Bible in Basic English" and "King James Version" are translations. Why don't you multiply your list by all the languages in the world?

:D

And in the meantime, was Eru right to drown Númenor?
 

Athelas

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The Bible on Slavery

* Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
* Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
* Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
* Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
* Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
* Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.

* Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
* Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Ok, now that we've used "Orders from God" as an excuse to murder countless men, women and children, we'll enslave the rest of them. But that's ok too, because God said so.
 

Eriol

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Er... was Eru right to drown Númenor?

Athelas, you might want to reconsider your stance in this thread. First you accused all Bible believers (and that, may I remind you, includes Jews) of having "a heap of hipocrisy". Then you compare them (including Jews) with proto-Nazis.

It's not only that you ask questions without listening to the answer (or perhaps you listened to the answer but refrained from commenting -- can you do that now?), but you also assume a posture that is, well, self-contradictory;). As explained in my first post here. If you are judging God, you must believe that you know more about Justice than He does. Care to explain how is that? Should we worship you?
 

Athelas

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Unable to address the posted issues, Eriol once again slips into diversion, rhetoric, and mindless parroting:

Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Eriol want a cracker?
 

Eriol

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Originally posted by Athelas
Unable to address the posted issues, Eriol once again slips into diversion, rhetoric, and mindless parroting:

Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Was Eru right to drown Numenor?
Eriol want a cracker?
Gosh, Athelas, your analytical skills impress me... It is amazing how you go straight into the heart of the question. How do you do it? Is it a native skill, or did you practice it?

:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, you might as well address the question asked; and perhaps even, you know, answering it. But then again, you'd have to think about it; mindless parroting would not be enough. And the problem is, your answer would falsify all that you are trying to show here. Your avoidance of the issue being discussed is not mindless, Athelas... it is cunning. But not enough. You either stay blind, or open your eyes and think.

The horror...

The horror...

I guess this thread will go the way of other threads of yours... a lot of impressive rantings, arguments answering them, and finally silence. From my own side of it I'll shortcircuit the process now, and refrain from discussing this until and unless you answer my points: how can one judge God? How can God be in the wrong? Where does your notion of justice come from, to retain authority over God?

And last but not least, was Eru right to drown Númenor?

:D
 

Ciryaher

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Well if Jews are Nazi's, you're right, Athelas ;) All of these (with few exceptions) are from the Old Testament (aka: The Torah) and are therefore negated by Christ. You'll have to complain to the Jews about these laws, Athelas...and try doing *that* without getting crucified.
 

Athelas

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>Meanwhile, you might as well address the question asked; and perhaps even, you know, answering it.<

The Question, if you would care to scroll up a bit, would be about genocide or slavery in the Bible, take your pic; but, obviously you are graveled for lack of any direct reply, since you attempt the puerile ruse of answering the questions with more questions. (Gosh, how clever). And then you accuse me of avoiding the question. Do you always fumble so awkwardly and then pat yourself on the back?
Given the nature of your beliefs, I'm not surprised.

Oh, and now we're maligning Jews. How Christian.
 

Ciryaher

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Nobody said anything bad about Jews, but the OLD TESTAMENT is JEWISH LAW that was unmade by the New Covanent. And all of your quotes but the one from Luke come from the Old Testament :) Therefore, you need to lodge your complaint with the Jews mostly.

* Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."

Believe it or not, that is a mistranslation. The original Hebrew word should be translated into the commandment:

* Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not commit premeditated murder."

Otherwise people would go to Hell for eating, self-defense, or accidentally ending someone's life (such as in a workplace accident).
 

HLGStrider

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Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
I thought it might be nice to look some of these up within context. This is the end of a parable that uses the illustration of master and servant as an analogy between God and his followers, which is a good analogy. We're on this earth for two fold reason: To love God, to do His work.

I don't think the analogy applies much to real life application of slaves and masters.

This is the only one that really struck me as taken out of context, however. . .Here, let me look again to make sure.

Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Never mistake a curse for a commandment. Often there are curses in the Bible, predictions if you will. It is predicted that something will happen, but it is not commanded that is should be made to happen. It was cursed that Adam should slave in the hot sun. That does not mean that a man who works in the shade is violating a commandment. It was cursed that Eve should have pain in child birth. I don't think epidurals are unholy. . .Did I spell epidural right? That's the way they dull child birth pain, isn't it? I've personally never had a child, and my mom's into the natural thing, so I really don't know how to spell it. . .

It was cursed that Canaan should be a servant. I don't think that is a justification of slavery, though I admit that it was used as one in the past.

Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it
Also a curse. . .God commonly used slavery or capitivity as a punishment. That was what the whole Babalonian thing was about.

Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
Obediance is a Christian virtue. Anytime a Christian is put under someone, a Christian is to obey them, as long as whoever the Christian is under does not order them to violate God's laws.

You can see similar verses involving parents and children and subjects and kings. We are to honor our parents. We are to give unto Caeser. . .and wives, in a less popular one nowadays and one that has been abused by husbands in the past, are to submit to husbands.

Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
I think this would be best contrasted with Colossians 3:22. Christians are now being told to level the playing field amongst themselves. However, if a Christian is a servant, a Christian is not to go up to his master and say, "By the way, I'm a Christian now, so I'm not going to obey you." It wasn't to work that way. For one thing, it would've given the Roman's just that much more reason to slaughter the Christians. For another, Christianity stresses obedience and a good example.
 

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