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Creation vs. Evolution

Which view is yours?

  • Athiestic Evolution

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • Thiestic Evolution

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • Young-earth Creation

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • Old-earth Creation

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22

Gothmog

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Astaldo

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Actually is not exactly 6 24-hour days. Each day is a period of many many years. The word "day" allegoric. Now if there is a creator or not I really do not know.
 

Aragorn21

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Gothmog said:
There are a couple of threads in the Forsaken Inn already about this subject. However, some members may have been put off posting in those, so instead of merging them together at this time, I will just give links to them and to another in the archives. Please have a read of them.

Evolution vs. Creation
who believes in evolution
Thoughts about Darwinian evolution
Yes, I did realize there were already threads on this topic, however I didn't feel like reviving an old thread. If I did I feared that, instead of starting all over with a new discussion, they would go back to the old one that had died. Is that ok?


If there is a creator, there must be a destroyer.
The devil. ;)
 

Astaldo

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I do not think devil is the destroyer. This guy cannot do anything right. If he could destroy the world he would have done it long ago.

I think the destroyer will be Morgoth when he will be realesed. If he will ever be realesed. ;)
 

Gothmog

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Aragorn21 said:
Yes, I did realize there were already threads on this topic, however I didn't feel like reviving an old thread. If I did I feared that, instead of starting all over with a new discussion, they would go back to the old one that had died. Is that ok?
It is for the same reason that I did not merge the threads but only gave links to them. :) I too am hoping for a new discussion.
 
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greypilgrim

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If you don't believe in God you have to believe in nature.

I don't think earth has the only life in the universe.
 

Barliman Butterbur

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Aragorn21 said:
What's your view? I personally believe that all evidence points to a creator. I, however, do not believe God created the earth and all it contains in six literal 24-hour days.
Many more like you see what they conclude is evidence for a creator. Others take much of the same "evidence" and conclude just the opposite. Still others (like myself) have concluded that man is incapable of finding out one way or the other, for the same reason that a cat is incapable of reading. I am saying that I absolutely believe that the most brilliant humans who ever lived still fall far short of the ability to apprehend the truth of reality.

And I have concluded quite to my own satisfaction that "God" as described in the world's holy books are figments of man's imagination, his early attempts to explain the Big Questions.

As I say, this is a settled issue for me, and I have no need or desire to debate it or prove it.

But to answer your question: I believe in most of what science alleges about the creation and functioning of the universe. I am suspicious of the Big Bang Theory. It begs the question, What was there before there was Anything, and how long was it there? Most humans conclude that Reality is the consequence of some sort of intelligent Force, but that's only the human thought process. There may well be other intelligent races in the universe (and possibly other universes and dimensions) whose makeup allow them to apprehend much more of the reality of the situation than we can.

Barley
 
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joxy

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Barliman Butterbur said:
What was there before there was Anything, and how long was it there?
The response to that is that those are questions which literally can have no answer.
That is because Time itself came into existence only with the Big Bang - if there was one! - so there was no "before" or "long".
 

Aragorn21

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joxy said:
The response to that is that those are questions which literally can have no answer.
That is because Time itself came into existence only with the Big Bang - if there was one! - so there was no "before" or "long".
And that, is why evolution is not a science...it also takes faith. You agree?
 

Barliman Butterbur

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joxy said:
...Time itself came into existence only with the Big Bang - if there was one! - so there was no "before" or "long".
With respect: what IS time? According to Henrí Bergson, there is a huge difference between time and duration; time being man's arbitrary chopping up of duration into units that he can understand: minutes, seconds, etc. Duration is the "lastingness" of existence, which had to be there along with space and matter.

That time came into existence with the Big Bang begs the question — again — what was there before the Big Bang (if there was one, as you said), and how long did it last, and what came before that in infinite regress.

For me, the Big Bang Theory is just that: a theory, a production, a concoction of man's (limited) mind (albeit his best effort so far, and open to change with the very next discovery), which is (I firmly believe) woefully inadequate to the task of finding the answer to the question, which in itself may be the wrong question because it too is the product of man's limited mind and sensorium.

That's why, in my ever-more-doddering old age and senescence, I see that the only thing that matters is: How well am I treating myself and you? Pass that jug of 1420!

Barley
 

e.Blackstar

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I belive that God created the world, not in 24-hour days, but merely in seven time periods. As Spirit said, if there is a creator (yep) then there has to be a destroyer-has anyone here read Revalation? I don;t think that with his current power, the devil could destroy the world as a whole, but if he corrput senoughh people and gets them to do enough stuff, then I suppose that it could be destruction. I think that God's power is holdingt him back as of now and when the time comes, that wall will be let down for the devil to go amongst his own subjects and do with them as he sees fit. Somehow I don;t think that it will be all that nice or fun for them.
 

Barliman Butterbur

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Treyar said:
I belive that God created the world, not in 24-hour days, but merely in seven time periods. As Spirit said, if there is a creator (yep) then there has to be a destroyer-has anyone here read Revalation? I don;t think that with his current power, the devil could destroy the world as a whole, but if he corrput senoughh people and gets them to do enough stuff, then I suppose that it could be destruction. I think that God's power is holdingt him back as of now and when the time comes, that wall will be let down for the devil to go amongst his own subjects and do with them as he sees fit. Somehow I don;t think that it will be all that nice or fun for them.
You are a believing Christian, which is fine. Just know that other religions have equally legitimate notions about creation and divinity, not to mention what science and the various philosophies have to say about them.

Barley
 

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There are two basic caveats in all this mess which scientists haven't been able to find a plausible explaination for IMO:

1. Just How/why did Humans evolve from 'dead' Orangic matter into 'sentient' lifeforms?

2. What came before Planck's time?
 
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greypilgrim

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Who/what is Planck?

Well, scientifically, the earth is about 70% water, and so is the human body. Makes you wonder...since (yes) we need water to live and (yes), fish are healthy to eat...did we "evolve" from the oceans?

I disbelieve the Big Bang theory. It, like the existance of a creator, cannot be proven (or disproven). And like Barley said, I agree that the human mind cannot comprehend the vastness of time and space. Mathematics help.
 

Barliman Butterbur

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greypilgrim said:
Who/what is Planck?
Max Planck was one of the fathers of quantum physics.

===============================

"He studied thermodynamics, in particular examining the distribution of energy according to wavelength. By combining the formulas of Wien and Rayleigh, Planck announced in October 1900 a formula now known as Planck's radiation formula. Within two months Planck made a complete theoretical deduction of his formula renouncing classical physics and introducing the quanta of energy. On 14 December 1900 he presented his theoretical explanation involving quanta of energy at a meeting of the Physikalische Gesellschaft in Berlin. In doing so he had to reject his belief that the second law of thermodynamics was an absolute law of nature, and accept Boltzmann's interpretation that it was a statistical law. In a letter written a year later Planck described proposing the theoretical interpretation of the radiation formula saying:-

... the whole procedure was an act of despair because a theoretical interpretation had to be found at any price, no matter how high that might be.

Planck received the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1918 for his achievement."

===============================

For details on Planck, click here.

...like Barley said, I agree that the human mind cannot comprehend the vastness of time and space. Mathematics help.
Although mathematics has enabled us to gain much knowledge and theorize deeply, it is still the product of the limited human brain/mind. The only really complex mind we know of is the human mind, which, in my opinion is the product of the human brain, which has evolved to survive on this planet (and we are so proud of it!).

The human brain has its limits: it can only produce thoughts commensurate with its biological structure and nature. If we compare the brain to a waffle iron, and its thoughts to the batter: no matter how one varies the ingredients, the thought-product is still going to look like a waffle: bearing the stamp of the waffle iron which produced it. In other words, any thoughts the brain/mind produces are going to bear the stamp of the brain's limits. We usually don't think of this.

We are still arrogant enough to believe that the human brain/mind and the five senses are enough to eventually solve anything. We don't understand our own limits because we have nothing to compare them with: no Martians, no Venusians or other creatures whose development might surpass ours by light-years.

We can never step outside of our own limits. We don't think about this very much. We should, it would help keep down the rampant hubris which is the constant companion of our human accomplishments. Our brains are sufficient for our needs, but one wonders: what else could we accomplish, what else could we learn, were our brain/minds and senses more developed and sophisiticated, or if we had senses (which cannot even be imagined) that would allow us to perceive aspects of Reality that are denied us because of our present limitations?

Cats can only think cat thoughts, dogs can only think dog thoughts, and humans can only think human thoughts. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there are beings in Reality, entirely outside our means to detect, and who are evolutionally equipped to know much more about the Nature of Being that we will ever be able to do at this stage of our evolution.

Barley
 
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