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Debate Tournament - Round 6: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Scholar's Hall

Chymaera

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Once again we will enter the Hosting fray :D

If the guilds would submit there teams we can commence.

The Judges:
Eriol for Tolkienology
YayGollum for the Outcasts
Talierin as the Neuteral
Chymaera for Ost-in-Edhil;)
The_Swordmaster for the Elves and Dwarves
 
Last edited:

baragund

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The Guild of Scholars will be represented by:

Baragund
Inderjit S
Maedhros
Feanorian
 

Chymaera

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I will be away for the rest of the week. If the Periaur get their team together, Gothmog has the question and he can post it. If nothing has happened by the weekend then we should postpone until we can have a debate.
 

Maedhros

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I will need a few days to get some volunteers. My other current teammates are unavailable.
 

Chymaera

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Okay we will start. My apologies for the delays.

Here we go.


The Doom of Mandos
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they ever be for ever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
The Curse of Morgoth
Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said ' Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.'

The Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle
Which was the most effective? That is which was most fully complete in its intent, The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of Morgoth.


The Guild of The Periaur have the choice of sides adn the debate will last 7 days from the first post.

Good Luck to both teams.
 

Aulë

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I know it's a bit late, but would it be OK with Chymaera and the Scholars if the Periaur replaced Tookish with Celebthôl in our team?
 

Chymaera

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Originally posted by Aulë
I know it's a bit late, but would it be OK with Chymaera and the Scholars if the Periaur replaced Tookish with Celebthôl in our team?
I didn't know that he was a Periaur. I have no objections.
 

Aulë

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Originally posted by Chymaera
I didn't know that he was a Periaur. I have no objections.
He joined the Guild just recently.


Chymaera, could we please get some clarrification on this topic?
Posted by Niniel
Are we supposed to argue which one of the two was most effective? Both of them were effective in that they both came to fulfillment as they were spoken. But whereas the curse of Morgoth was intentionally spoken with the goal of causing suffering for Húrin's family, the Doom of Mandos was not actually a curse, but only a prediction of what was going to happen. So they are not really comparable.
 

Elfarmari

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Originally posted by Aulë
Chymaera, could we please get some clarrification on this topic?
I completely agree. The Curse of Mandos was not really a curse, per se, but a prophecy, whereas Morgoth's curse was basically Morgoth telling Hurin he was going to go after his family. I do not see them as comparable.
 

Chymaera

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Please excuse my absents. I will try to clarify my question.

Both the Curse of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos were made with a goal in mind; both were punishments that in the end came to touch the lives of all who lived in Belariand at the end of the First Age, whether the curse and doom were intended for them or not.

Which of these two was the best at meeting and/or exceeding its intended purpose?

I hope that this helps.
 

FoolOfATook

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Are there any further issues of clarification, or has Chymaera covered it?

At any rate, this debate is overdue to begin.
 

baragund

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I believe us Scholar types are OK with the question as clarified. So let's get ready to rumble!! :)
 

Niniel

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Alright then, there goes…
The Periaur will argue that the Curse of Morgoth was best at achieving its original purpose. To see why, we first need to see what the purpose of either was.
The Doom of Mandos goes as follows:
‘Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-Earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.’
It is not clear whether what happened to the Noldor was caused by the Doom, or that the Doom was just a prediction of what was going to happen. The Periaur hold that the Doom was only a prediction, and that everything that happened was the logical consequence of the fact that the Noldor left Aman. This means that everything that had happened was already included in the Music of the Ainur, and that the Valar only prophesied it to the Noldor. In that case the Doom was not a punishment, and it can not have an exact purpose, because everything was destined to happen the way it did, and not otherwise.
Nonetheless even though the Doom sounds to be quite clear, not the whole Doom came to be; or at least not to its fullest extent. This can be shown by analysing it sentence by sentence.
‘For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief...’
This is undoubtedly true; the whole history of ME is one series of battles in which ever more Elves were slain; and others died by torment or by grief. However it is not entirely true, because there were also many beautiful things that were created, such as the building of Gondolin, Menegroth, and Nargothrond, which were all very beautiful to see. Also many good things happened, such as the love between Lúthien and Beren. So, although many terrible things happened, there was also beauty and love in ME. There could have been even more pain and suffering, so you can’t say that the Doom was fulfilled to its highest possible extent.
‘and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you.’
This is also true, but there are exceptions; Glorfindel was re-housed in a new body, and Finrod ‘walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees of Eldamar.’
‘And those that endure in Middle-Earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.’
This is true, yet after the Valar had taken pity on the Noldor, many were allowed to return to Aman, and not wane in Eä.
For now we come to the second point; the Valar in the end took pity on the Noldor, and lifted the suffering. Eärendil came to the Valar and ‘pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need. And his prayer was granted.’ For after Eärendil’s embassy the Valar came to Middle-Earth and defeated Morgoth, let the Noldor return to Aman and gave Númenor to the Edain.
And even while the Doom lasted the Valar had not completely forgotten ME; at least not all of them. Ulmo says to Tuor:
‘But behold! In the armour of Fate there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye cal, the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World.’
This seems both to prove that the Doom of Mandos was only a prophesy and not caused by the Valar, because everything, even Ulmo’s breach of Doom, seems to be destined during the Ainulindalë, and also that the Doom was not all-embracing, since things can be done that were not in the Doom.
All in all, though the Doom of Mandos was terrible, there was also beauty and love in ME, and the Doom was not fulfilled to its highest possible extent.
Let’s now turn to the Curse of Morgoth. Morgoth says to Húrin:
‘But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.’
The purpose of the Curse was thus to cause as much suffering as possible for the family of Húrin.
It can’t be doubted that everything Morgoth said came true. For Túrin, Nienor and Morwen there was no love, no beauty, and no hope in anything they did. They had no moments of true happiness; or when they had, they turned out to be wrong, such as the marriage of Túrin and Nienor. There was no pity to be expected from Morgoth, and no escaping from the Curse such as Tuor had done with the Doom of Mandos. The only reason why the Curse of Morgoth was not so great in its extent was that it was only aimed at Húrin’s family, while the Doom of Mandos touched upon the whole of ME. But as far as the Curse went, it was fulfilled to its highest extent.
Therefore the Periaur say that the Curse of Morgoth was best at meeting its intended purpose, and we challenge you to prove us wrong!
 

Maedhros

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The Topic is:
Which was the most effective? That is which was most fully complete in its intent, The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of Morgoth.
Posted by GoP
It is not clear whether what happened to the Noldor was caused by the Doom, or that the Doom was just a prediction of what was going to happen. The Periaur hold that the Doom was only a prediction, and that everything that happened was the logical consequence of the fact that the Noldor left Aman. This means that everything that had happened was already included in the Music of the Ainur, and that the Valar only prophesied it to the Noldor.
This is of course very weird. You see in the Music of the Ainur, the Ainur were only involved in the first two themes. In the third theme, when Ilúvatar made his children the Ainur had no part. To say that the Ainur would know everything that would happen with the Elves and Men in ME without them being actually involved in the that theme cannot be right. Simple. There is only one being who knows everything and that is Ilúvatar.
Posted by GoP
However it is not entirely true, because there were also many beautiful things that were created, such as the building of Gondolin, Menegroth, and Nargothrond, which were all very beautiful to see.
Menegroth of course it's the work of Telerin elves with a maiar. It was at first fully independent of the Doom of Mandos.
The Doom of Mandos states:
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
Where in all of that say that the Ñoldor wouldn't create beautiful things in ME? Where does it says good things couldn't happen in ME? Where does it says that there would be no love in Me because of the Curse? It's all in there, and it doesn't say it.
Posted by GoP
This is also true, but there are exceptions; Glorfindel was re-housed in a new body, and Finrod ‘walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees of Eldamar.’
Hehe. All elves are rehoused sooner or later. It depends on their deeds. In the case of Glorfindel and Finrod, you have to take into account their deeds.
Glorfindel is the elf of Gondolin who fought with a balrog in order to help Tuor and Co escape and then go to the havens of Sirion. He sacrificed himself for others. But in reality, JRRT had used the name Glorfindel in LOTR, and he had forgotten that he had used in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, so instead of changing one name, he merely made him re-house and be the same one.
Finrod is of course, the wisest of all the exiled Ñoldor. It was he who first encountered Men and instructed them, and it was he who gave his life to save Beren. And he took no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.
Posted by GoP
This is true, yet after the Valar had taken pity on the Noldor, many were allowed to return to Aman, and not wane in Eä.
So, if they were left on ME, they would have waned like Mandos says. I agree with that.
Posted by GoP
This seems both to prove that the Doom of Mandos was only a prophesy and not caused by the Valar, because everything, even Ulmo’s breach of Doom, seems to be destined during the Ainulindalë, and also that the Doom was not all-embracing, since things can be done that were not in the Doom.
I think there is the matter of scope. The doom focuses mainly on the House of Fëanor, and those who followed them. At that point, it would the other Ñoldorian princes. When they arrived in ME, more were lured into it, including the Edain, who aided the Ñoldor in the War against Morgoth. Notice that when the Valar arrived with their hosts for the War of Wrath, all of the Ñoldorian Kingdoms were extinct: Gondolin, Nargothrond, Fingon's and those of the sons of Fëanor. All of them had suffered greatly, as the Doom foretold. The Edain, who aided the Ñoldor, suffered greatly too. The Doom never states that ME would become the sole domain of Morgoth Bauglir. Notice that the doom does not says that all the Ñoldor or Men would be anihilated, just that they would suffer greatly from treason, and so it was. The Ñoldor lost the Nirnaeth because of the treason of Ulfang and his sons. Gondolin was destroyed by treason. The remants of Doriath and the Havens of Sirion were ravaged by the sons of Fëanor and in all of their tries, they never obtained the Silmaril.
It was only after the Valar had forsaken the Curse of Mandos that ME was saved. Interesting that it was then that Maeðros and Maglor were able to obtain the Silmarils.

Now to the Curse of Morgoth:
‘But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.’
To bring upon Húrin's family darkness and despair.
Posted by GoP
It can’t be doubted that everything Morgoth said came true. For Túrin, Nienor and Morwen there was no love, no beauty, and no hope in anything they did.
Are you sure? That is not truth of course. Morwen is the perfect example of that. Put yourself in that situation. Your husband is a prisioner in Angband, you send your son Túrin away, and never saw him again. Nienor her daugther was lost. When she found them they were already dead.
And what is despair:
despair: To lose all hope.
From the Wanderings of Húrin
At length as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted up her face slowly, haggard and hungry as a long-hunted wolf. Grey she was, sharp-nosed with broken teeth, and with a lean hand she clawed at the cloak upon her breast. But suddenly her eyes looked into his, and then Húrin knew her; for though they were wild now and full of fear, a light still gleamed in them hard to endure: the elven-light that long ago had earned her her name, Eðelwen, proudest of mortal women in the days of old.
'Eðelwen! Eðelwen!' Húrin cried; and she rose and stumbled forward, and he caught her in his arms.
'You come at last,' she said. 'I have waited too long.
'It was a dark road. I have come as I could,' he answered.
'But you are late,' she said, 'too late. They are lost.'
'I know,' he said. 'But thou art not.'
'Almost,' she said. 'I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun.
Even with all that happened to her, she still waited for Húrin's return. It was impossible for Húrin to escape from Angband, and Morwen knowing that still waited for him. She never lost hope, therefore the Curse of Morgoth, was not enough to break her, nor her hope, thus it failed.
Compare Finwë and Míriel with Húrin and Morwen. Finwë and Míriel lived in Paradise, they had a child and then they lost hope. Finwë didn't give his wife time to heal, and thought that his suffering was greater than that of his wife.
Morwen should have had no reason to wait for Húrin. Her sons were dead, her husband imprisioned in Hell. And yet, she still clung to the hope of being reunited with him again. It cost her a lot, but she always retained hope.
From Later Quentas:
. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru
This is the love story of the Quenta Silmarillion.
 

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