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Debate Tournament - Round 6: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Scholar's Hall

Aulë

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The Doom of Mandos
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of FĂ«anor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
Originally posted by Maedhros
Let's look at the current events in the rebellion of the Ă‘olor:
Slaying of the Ă‘oldĂłran.
Rebellion of FĂ«anor in the Ring of Doom.
The Ă‘oldor begin to flee from Tirion.
Receive a message from Manwë to restrain their going and stay because it will not end well and the hour was evil.
Ñoldor reach Alqualondë, Teleri refuse to aid them, the Kinslaying.
Ă‘oldor reach the Wastes of Araman and then the Doom of Mandos.

The warning to the Ñoldor had alredy come to them by the messanger of Manwë. After the kinslaying, Námo cursed the ones that would go to ME. There were some, who were sad because of the Kinslaying and after hearing of the curse, chose to seek the pardon of the Valar. It was a curse directed at the house of Fëanor and those who chose to follow him to ME. Simple. And it was fulfilled utterly. The exiled Ñoldor who were not killed, were stricken with grief for the lost of their loves ones
As much as you try to deny the obvious, Maedhros, it appears to me that it was a threat. A warning, telling the Noldor not to travel to ME, or else.
It partly worked, in that it changed Finarfin and his people's minds. They didn't go to ME. They heeded the warning. They thought "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to stay here, and not have to go through all that trouble?".
The Doom worked on them. But it's purpose (to keep the Noldor in Valinor) did not come to pass, as the Sons of FĂ«anor and their followers ignored the warning, and went on their merry way to ME.

The Valar did not decide "Hmm, those Noldor are becoming annoying- let's give them pain and suffering until the end of time".
No, the Valar loved the Noldor. They knew what was best for them: to stay in Valinor. So they made up the Doom of Mandos to warn the Noldor to stay in Valinor.
But it did not work. It was a failure.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Valinor was indeed fenced, and Eärendil was only able to reach it because of the power of the Silmaril, which contained the light of the trees that were made by Yavanna. Ahhhhhh. So using the power of the Valar they were able to overcome their fencing. Ahhhhh.
You appear to be clutching at straws, dear Maedhros, and rather short ones at that.
The Doom does not say "and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains unless you have a Silmaril; in which case we will gladly accept you back, and take back this Doom.":rolleyes:
It says that they will not allow them back into Valinor, period.
But what happened? One of the little buggers snuck through the 'fence' and reached Valinor.

And let us not forget the eagle that Manwë sent to Fingon in pity for Maedhros' (once again, the elf, not the debater ;) ) precarious position. Fingon prayed to the Valar for pity, and Manwë sent an eagle to help carry Fingon to the bound Maedhros, and to fly them
away from Thangorodruin.
Fingon's lamentation certainly reached the Valar there...

Therefore, that part of the Doom did not come to pass.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Manwë, being the Elder King and the vice regent of Ilúvatar, could over ride the decision to let the Ñoldor come back to Valinórë and to assail Morgoth.
So Manwë over-ruled the Doom before it could come to pass entirely?
Doesn't sound as if it were completed...and therefore it mustn't have achieved it's secondary purpose of punishing the Sons of FĂ«anor and their followers for not heeding this threat beforehand.

So we have determined that this warning/punishment did not achieve it's purpose in that:
A/. It did not prevent the Sons of FĂ«anor from leaving to pursue Morgoth.
B/. It's predicted punishment did not come 100% true.
C/. It was called off by Manwë before it's resulting punishment had entirely come to pass.

Edit: Fixed a couple of vB code errors. Sorry.
 
Last edited:

CelebthĂ´l

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This is the final post by the Periaur…

As of yet the GoS have still failed to explain what exactly the Doom of Mandos was, unless it was a warning, however, if it was a warning to stop the Noldor leaving Valinor, then it failed,
obviously.

First, let’s establish the intent of the Doom of Mandos. It was a warning to the Noldor against continuing down a rash path.
There was from the beginning the possibility that the Valar would pardon them, and they even helped them receive mercy (Ulmo helped Tuor)
The GoS seems to be confused about its purpose and scope, you first said that it ended after the Valar had pardoned the Noldor. You even add quotes to back this. Then you start saying how it affected Elves such as Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad. Note how these Elves came AFTER the Doom was “lifted”

Look at Gil-Galad, who was of the house of Finarfin, how he lost his family and their kingdoms. Look at all the death and suffering that they endured.
And...

Feanor and all of his sons met ruin. All of their realms were ultimately destroyed. Even later generations like Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, ultimately came to ruin in the ensnarement by Sauron over the Rings of Power and the ultimate destruction of Ost-in-Edhil.


While the curse of Morgoth didn't include the possibility of pity and it came true to the fullest possible extent, with all of Hurin’s family while the things that were mentioned in the Doom didn't all come true.

It can be because the Curse wasn't finished when HĂşrin was set free; he betrayed the whereabouts of Gondolin to Morgoth. Thus destroying Turgon, someone who HĂşrin certainly also loved and thus part of the curse, that was directed against 'all whom you love.'
As Niniel shows, the curse always came through at the best time for Morgoth and the worst time for HĂşrin...

I am so sorry GoP my computer was acting up and i couldnt do as good a closing as i should have done :(. . .im sorry...
 

Maedhros

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Posted by GoP
As much as you try to deny the obvious, Maedhros, it appears to me that it was a threat. A warning, telling the Noldor not to travel to ME, or else.
It appears to you. The good thing is that what appears to you and what is actually is are two different things. Notice that my friend Aulë says: telling the Ñoldor. If it was a warning then all the Ñoldor had the opportunity to come back. If you read the case that is not true. The house of Fëanor could not return to Valinórë. It is so stated, so it couldn't be a warning. I think that you are confused with something that it is said before in that chapter:
But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness.
Now this is the warning and the threat. Simple.
Posted by GoP
They heeded the warning. They thought "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to stay here, and not have to go through all that trouble?".
The Doom worked on them. But it's purpose (to keep the Noldor in Valinor) did not come to pass, as the Sons of FĂ«anor and their followers ignored the warning, and went on their merry way to ME.
It is interesting to note the details of those who remained in Valinórë. The ones that remained where led by Finarfin, who his wife was of the Teleri, which the House of Fëanor had killed a lot in Alqualondë.
But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë
If they had killed a bunch of my friends, I would have been filled with bitterness against them too.
Posted by GoP
The Doom does not say "and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains unless you have a Silmaril; in which case we will gladly accept you back, and take back this Doom."
It says that they will not allow them back into Valinor, period.
But what happened? One of the little buggers snuck through the 'fence' and reached Valinor.
Hehe. Ahhhh, but that is not what happened. Valinórë was indeed fenced. When Eärendil came with Elwing and Co with the Silmaril, the Valar didn't remove their enchantments. It was still fenced. It was the inherent power of the Silmaril that made them be able to surpass the enchantments set by them. Simple.
Posted by GoP
And let us not forget the eagle that Manwë sent to Fingon in pity for Maedhros' (once again, the elf, not the debater ) precarious position. Fingon prayed to the Valar for pity, and Manwë sent an eagle to help carry Fingon to the bound Maedhros, and to fly them away from Thangorodruin.
Fingon's lamentation certainly reached the Valar there...
Unfortunately for the GoP, it is not part of the Curse. Before the doom of Mandos, Manwë send a messenger to speak against Fëanor. I quoted this previously in this post. It is of course, not certain that Manwë send the eagle there, for it is not stated that he actually did. Anyway, it has no bearing on the topic because it was not part of the Doom uttered by Námo.
Posted by GoP
So Manwë over-ruled the Doom before it could come to pass entirely?
Doesn't sound as if it were completed...and therefore it mustn't have achieved it's secondary purpose of punishing the Sons of FĂ«anor and their followers for not heeding this threat beforehand.
I'm sorry to say this, but this doesn't makes sense. All of the Ñoldorian exiles suffered great pains. Of the House of Fëanor, only Maedhros and Maglor survived before the War of Wrath. They had lost their right to be the Kings of the Ñoldor. They had lost their treasure. They had fallen greatly from their former selves of Valinórë. Their oath drove them to do hideous things. All of the great Ñoldorian Kingdoms were destroyed: Gondolin, Nargothrond, etc. Most of the Ñoldor did indeed perish in their War against Morgoth. The ones that lived had to live with the fact that their loved ones were either dead or missing, and their great realms destroyed.
Posted by GoP
A/. It did not prevent the Sons of FĂ«anor from leaving to pursue Morgoth.
B/. It's predicted punishment did not come 100% true.
C/. It was called off by Manwë before it's resulting punishment had entirely come to pass.
Now this is interesting. My friend Aulë states that the Doom was called off before the resulting punishment had come to pass, hinting that it was the purpose of the Doom, yet he states in the beginning of his post that the purpose was that it was just a threat. Hmmmmm. It makes me wonder.
Look at point A: In the warning that the messenger of Manwë issued to the Ñoldor in the gates of Tirion, he states that the Fëanorians by their own oath were exiled. They HAD to go. Period. The Doom of Mandos didn't give them a chance to return.
B and C: It is interesting the phrase resulting punishment. What is the resulting punishment? That all of the Exiled Ă‘oldor were annihilated? That was not the purpose. We have that:
  1. Most of the Ă‘oldor were killed as predicted by the Doom.
  2. FĂ«anor house lost their right to the Kingship of the Ă‘oldor and their treasures.
  3. Valinórë was forever fenced to the Ñoldor. Eärendil reached it with the help of the Silmaril. Remember, he had made several trips before. If the Valar had broken the Doom then Eärendil would have needed no Silmaril.
  4. Technically, the Doom does not states that Valinórë would stay shut forever. It only says that the Fëanorians would be dispossessed forever and they were.
    [/list=1]
    Posted by GoP
    As of yet the GoS have still failed to explain what exactly the Doom of Mandos was, unless it was a warning, however, if it was a warning to stop the Noldor leaving Valinor, then it failed,
    obviously.
    Obviously, you haven't read my posts. :( When Manwë messenger came to the gates of Tirion the Fair, he warned them not to go forth. That was the warning. The Doom of Mandos was a curse of all the perils that would strike the Ñoldor. Simple.
    Posted by GoP
    There was from the beginning the possibility that the Valar would pardon them, and they even helped them receive mercy (Ulmo helped Tuor)
    The GoS seems to be confused about its purpose and scope, you first said that it ended after the Valar had pardoned the Noldor. You even add quotes to back this. Then you start saying how it affected Elves such as Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad. Note how these Elves came AFTER the Doom was “lifted”
    Hehe. Lets talk about confusion. It is Manwë's messenger that says that the Valar will not aid the Ñoldor, not the Doom of Mandos.
    I think that it was you btw, you posted that the making of the Rings of Power by Celebrimbor was an effect of the Doom of Mandos. I haven't used such references because it they would simple be plain wrong.
    Remember, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor survived the events before the War of Wrath. And Celebrimbor's love was denied to him, it was Galadriel.
    Posted by GoP
    While the curse of Morgoth didn't include the possibility of pity and it came true to the fullest possible extent, with all of Hurin’s family while the things that were mentioned in the Doom didn't all come true.
    I like the phrase fullest possible extent. Lets look at the Curse of Morgoth:
    But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.
    The Curse of Morgoth is more especific than that of the Ă‘oldor. It was directed at HĂşrin's family. If the intended purpose was to cause despair in them, how is it possible that Morwen endured the loss of her sons and the fact that her husband was imprisioned in Angband. Why did she endured that? Why didn't she lose hope? Why didn't she fall into despair?
    Answer, because she always believe that she would be reunited with her husband.
    And her heart still cheated her with hope unadmitted; her inmost thought foreboded that HĂşrin was not dead, and she listened for his footfall in the sleepless watches of the night
    And look at what HĂşrin says about her:
    So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and HĂşrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stem was her face. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down.
    Posted by GoP
    As Niniel shows, the curse always came through at the best time for Morgoth and the worst time for HĂşrin...
    Best time for Morgoth? What does this means?
 

Maedhros

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C'est fini

Curse of Morgoth Bauglir

Our friends from the GoP, would makes us believe that what happened to the Family of HĂşrin was all of Morgoth's doing, forgetting the fact that they were responsible for their actions. The greatest fault that the family of HĂşrin was their pride consider:
  1. TĂşrin refused the pardon of Thingol because of his pride.
  2. Morwen and Nienor refused to stay in Menegroth because of their pride.
  3. TĂşrin took his helm off when facing Glaurung because his pride was hurt by his words.
    [/list=1]
    The characters do have to take responsibility for their actions. I have posted the required quotes in an earlier posts.
    Lets consider for a moment, the unlikely situation that it was Morgoth's will that was driving them on. If this was true then, Morgoth would not do something in his handling of them that would hurt himself. But of course, we know that he couldn't control them as puppets.
    Wanderings of HĂşrin
    for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from HĂşrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of TĂşrin's deeds.
    Conclusion:
    People are responsible for their actions, especially Men who have the liberty to go outside of the Music of the Ainur.
    Notice that all of their arguments, in the Curse of Morgoth, they have been unable to proof why Morwen did not fall into despair.
    Posted by GoP
    I am so sorry GoP my computer was acting up and i couldnt do as good a closing as i should have done . . .im sorry...
    I salute you. Sometimes it's not the results that matter but the fact that you tried. You could have said that you didn't care or didn't feel like posting but you did, and for that you have my respect.;)
 

Niniel

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I don't think I have the authority to close the debate, but it will close in about an hour, so unless someone has something really important to say, this is it. Good luck to the judges, and may the best team win...
 

FoolOfATook

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I don't think I have the authority to close the debate, but it will close in about an hour, so unless someone has something really important to say, this is it.
I do have the authority, and even though it's probably not neccessary, I'm officially closing the debate. Officially. ;)
 

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