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Did Sauron really know of the existence of the Balrog?

Úlairi

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It says in the Sil:

"The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth ."
It then says in Appendix B in the Tale of Years in the Third Age timeline under the year 2480:

"Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures."
Now, amongst those creatures were Orcs and some of them were spies for Sauron, I mean, it is inevitable that Sauron situated some of his spies in Moria. Now, what if one of these spies reported to Sauron that there really was a Balrog in Moria.

Note: Remember this is all hypothetical but it could be true. It is not suggestive that it was true but it is definitely a possibility.

If so, then why didn't Sauron call the Balrog to his services? With the Balrog he could have done some serious damage!!! Any opinions?
 
M

Mormegil

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The way I see it there are 3 possibilities.

1) Sauron's Orcs in Moria never saw the Balrog, because it stayed down in the depths of Moria. Remember that both Gandalf and Aragorn passed through Moria without seeing it. Thus Sauron never knew of the existance of the Balrog. (I make this one unlikely)

2) Saurons orcs see the Balrog, but unknowing what it is, (Balrogs have been gone for thousands of years). Sauron gets word that there is a terror in Moria, but doesn't know it's a Balrog. Sauron thinks it is best left alone, like Shelob. (A possibility)

3) Sauron knows that there is a Balrog in Moria from reports by his orcs. However, The Balrog and Sauron are spiritual equals, Both are Maia, one is not more powerful than the other.
Sauron lacks the power to command the Balrog to his will. Also he would not be willing to share power with the Balrog if they decided on a 'partnership'.
The Balrog is not willing to be Sauron's slave. It is waiting for the return of its true master, Melkor. It is prepared to sit underground until that day and is not interested in events in ME, unless people invade Moria.
So Sauron is left with no option. He knows the Balrog exists, but cannot make it do his bidding. So he decides to leave it alone.
(Most likely IMO)

Just my thoughts on the matter.
 

DGoeij

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Good thoughts then. I favor version number tree. Personally, siince reading the Sil, I picture Balrogs as very powerfull servants of Malkor, bad to the bone and all. To me it seems likely the Balrog in Moria feels no need to fight on the side of Sauron, or anybody's side but his own.

I think it's unlikely that Sauron would not wish to find out about the 'terror' roaming around in Moria, or even not being aware of it.
 

UngattTrunn475

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Would've the spies of Sauron survive the Balrog? Since it was obsessed with destroying, it might have destroyed all the eye witnesses. (But I doubt it.)

Another possibility was that the Balrog didn't care to be with Sauron.
 

Samwise

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Originally posted by Mormegil
Remember that both Gandalf and Aragorn passed through Moria without seeing it.
The book doesn't say they saw it, but Gandalf knew that there was "older and fouler things that orcs in the deep place of the world" He must've known there was (or possibly) a Balrog in Moria.
Sauron and the Balrog were both servants of Melkor at one point. Sauron, knowing that the ring got to Rivendale, thought that they would try to take it to Minis Tirith. He most likely knew that there was a Balrog there from his spies and would've tried to send a message to the Balrog telling him of the the ring coming south. Just my thoughs.
 
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Mormegil

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Originally posted by Samwise

He must've known there was (or possibly) a Balrog in Moria.
I disagree. I think if Gandalf knew, or even thought it a possibility that a Balrog was in Moria, he would never have led the Ringbearer into Moria. He would have seen The Gap of Rohan as a much safer route, even taking into account Saruman.

Originally posted by Samwise

He most likely knew that there was a Balrog there from his spies and would've tried to send a message to the Balrog telling him of the the ring coming south. Just my thoughs.
I'm sorry, but I disagree again. There is no way that Sauron would have told the Balrog that the ring was coming its way. Sauron would be too scared that the Balrog would claim the ring and set itself up as the next dark lord.
When in fact the fellowship do meet the Balrog, it seems far more interested in Gandalf than in Frodo. IMO, the Balrog knows nothing about the ring and is just trying to get the intruders out of Moria.
 

Tulidian

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I don't think Gandalf knew there was a Balrog in Moria. For the reasons Mormegil pointed out, and the fact that Gandalf didn't even know what it was. I'm sure he could have guessed, but it completly threw him off guard. It was actually Legalos, I believe, who first realized it was a Balrog.
 

Rangerdave

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I would persoanly assume that Sauron was aware of the Flaming critter, but hoped that it would stay in place. At least until he recovered the one ring. Without the majority of his strength that is kept in the One Ring, Sauron would be hard preesed to say the least to control this demon of Morgoth. Also, Sauron desired control of all of Middle Earth and dominion over all its inhabitants. His fun would ended if a rogue Balrog kept eating all his slaves.

RD
 

Úlairi

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These are all great opinions.

Originally posted by Mormegil
The Balrog and Sauron are spiritual equals, Both are Maia, one is not more powerful than the other.
Mormegil, the Balrog was not Sauron's equal. Sauron was the commander of Morgoth's armies i.e. the Balrogs and his lieutenant. In the marine core a lieutenant greatly outranks a captain which Gothmaog was. Sauron was undisputedly the greatest sorceror on ME save Melkor who taught him. I have had countless arguments about this. There are orders of Maiar as you should know, seeing as your username shows that you have read the Narn i Hin Hurin which is the tale of the children of Hurin in which the black sword of Turin is mentioned. Sauron was of the highest order. He was up there with Eonwe, Ilmare and Osse. The Balrogs were of a lesser degree of Maia. Here is evidence to support that Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's servants therefore obviously showing that a mere Balrog was not his equal. It says in the Silmarillion in the Valaquenta on page 35 of my copy in the last paragraph:



"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."
Sauron was the greatest of the servants of Melkor. People are correct in saying that he could not will the Balrog to come to him but he could have bribed it. Someone made a good point that the Balrog may have actually been acting on the orders of Sauron when taking on the Fellowship but Sauron would have wanted the Ring and it was probable that the Balrog would have claimed it for himself and would have ousted Sauron. As someone else said, the Balrog was only interested in Gandalf and not Frodo the Ring-bearer, so the Balrog was obviously not acting under the services of Sauron. Could it be possible that Sauron may have discovered the Balrog after the Fellowship passed through Moria and then summoned it??? Probably not, but it would have been interesting. One other point also, it says that other Maia were attracted to the power that the One Ring holds, yet the Balrog did not take an interest with Frodo. Maybe he felt the power and wanted it, but he knew a force was there that he must overcome i.e Gandalf before he could claim it because it knew that Gandalf would stop him?
 

DGoeij

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I don't know if the Balrog was attracted by the Ring, but it surely must have felt the presence of Gandalf after the encounter at the door (of the room where Balin's tomb lay). And since a Balrog is a Maia of the 'bad' side, it would most certainly enjoy destroying a Maia of the 'good' side.
No doubt that if he succeeded, he would take on the rest of the Fellowship, stumble on the Ring and claim that for itself.
 

Minas

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Would the Balrog stumble on the ring or would the ring make itself easy to be found? I wonder if it would class the Balrog as too much of an obstacle to getting back to its master/creator Sauron.
 
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Mormegil

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Ulairi,
If you notice, I said that the Balrog and Sauron were "Spirtual Equals". Meaning that they were equal in their creation. They were both Maia.

Of course Sauron was more powerful in the Third Age than the Balrog. I do not dispute that. All I am saying is that Sauron was not powerful enough to bend the Balrog to his will. I believe that the Balrog would not serve anyone except Melkor himself. There may have been a degree of jeolousy from the Balrog towards Sauron.

As I said before, I do not believe that Sauron could have 'bribed' the Balrog to do his bidding, as the Balrog would not have accepted being Sauron's slave.
 

HLGStrider

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I wonder what that Balrog was doing all that time? Do Balrog's hibernate and just come out when bothered? This is a serious question.

To make it sound funny...

Perhaps he was making those cave painting on Morias walls... or studying up on his Elfish... I can see him with his own little well furnished room in the depths of Moria, wearing his dressing gown and relaxing with a good book on Evil Sorcery.
 

Úlairi

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Originally posted by Mormegil
Ulairi,
If you notice, I said that the Balrog and Sauron were "Spirtual Equals". Meaning that they were equal in their creation. They were both Maia.

Of course Sauron was more powerful in the Third Age than the Balrog. I do not dispute that. All I am saying is that Sauron was not powerful enough to bend the Balrog to his will. I believe that the Balrog would not serve anyone except Melkor himself. There may have been a degree of jeolousy from the Balrog towards Sauron.

As I said before, I do not believe that Sauron could have 'bribed' the Balrog to do his bidding, as the Balrog would not have accepted being Sauron's slave.
My apologies Mormegil, I guess I misinterpreted the "Spiritual equals" comment. As for the Balrog being jealous, that is a great comment and gives a perfect reason as to ignoring the summons of Sauron if he even summoned it at all.
 

Úlairi

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I thought of this just now. If Sauron had known of the existence of the Balrog, then he could have gone himself and have talked to the Balrog. Does anyone think that there was any way that Sauron could have drawn the Balrog to his service like offering him a dwarven ring or if he killed such and such then he would get such and such i.e if he killed Elrond and brought him Vilya than he could be his High Captain or something along the lines of...?
 

Bucky

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A few points missed here:

1. Sauron would've killed Elrond & over run Rivendell if he had the power, Balrog or no Balrog.

2. The Three Rings endure no evil, so it's a moot point.

3. The Orcs wouldn't know a Balrog? Orcs have the same life as Elves, so there must have been a few who knew what a Balrog was. Not that any Sauron 'peopled' Moria with would certainly know.

4. The fact that Sauron sent Orcs to Moria to 'cover' it indicates he didn't know what was there.

5. How easy was passage across the Anduin from 1981 (when the Dwarves fled) to 2941 Third Age (when Sauron left Dol Guldur)?

6. When Sauron went to Numinor as a hostage at the end of the 2nd Age, Who did he get the Numenoreans to worship? Himself?
No, MELKOR.
Who did the Balrog work for in the First Age?
MELKOR.

7. As 'Lieutenant' of Angband (btw, in the Marines, a Captain is higher), & the one whom Morgoth had 'left in charge of the war' when he went to check out the rising of Men, Sauron had already been in a position of authority over ALL the Balrogs.

My conclusion: Sauron didn't know until after the Fellowship, if even then, & The Balrog was VERY scared by the Host of the West & wasn't going anywhere. After all, it did hide for 5400 years.....
And, yes, SOMETHING besides Pippin's rock in the well drew Durin's Bane into the fray with the Fellowship - either the power of the Ring (maybe that's why DB killed 2 Dwarf Kings who might have had a Ring of Power), or Gandalf.
Most likely, IMHO, it was all 3, as Gandalf had passed through unconfronted before. Yet, if Durin's Bane had perceived Gandalf's spell, it would certainly be able to sense the power of the One Ring.....
 

Úlairi

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Ummmm, Bucky, the Rivendell was an example say it with me ex-am-ple very good!!! I knew that if Sauron had the power he would have crushed Rivendell with or without the Balrog well duh!!! I can just see Sauron saying to The Lord of the Nazgul:

"So when do we get to take on Rivendell?" says the Witch-king

"You don't, I'm leaving that to the Balrog!" says Sauron.

"But he won't listen to you!" says the Witch-king.

"Not if I give him a Ring he won't!" says Sauron.

Oh and by the way Mr. Super-intelligent Bucky, I said dwarven-ring not elven-ring! Sauron's hand touched the dwarven rings therefore making them susceptible to evil. As for the Elven-rings being touched by a Balrog that wouldn't do anything to it. It would just take it to Sauron but if it put it on then the Balrog would have gotten the scare of his life! Sauron gave the dwarven-rings to the dwarves so that they would come under his service. Of all people Bucky, I thought you'd know that, but, oh well!

As for the Orcs not knowing what a Balrog was, I never said that! I'm not that stupid!!! In fact if you'd like to know I am an A student and have topped English and Maths in my year for two years running!!! If Sauron sent Orcs to Moria knowing that a Balrog was there then he would have been pretty idiotic. If you read the start of this thread properly then you would understand that it was all hypothetical, you take things so seriously Bucky!

As for Sauron worshipping Melkor in Numenor that is correct, and Sauron believed what he was doing was preparing ME for the return of Melkor and what better way to do that than have a Balrog in your service!

Sauron was in control of the Balrogs at one point so then why would the Balrog have a problem with serving him again?
 

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