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Eowyn or Arwen?

pointy-eared

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aragorn is forever the archetypal of the man, and throughout the bookS i always wondered how it came that he doesn't fall for eowyn. ok arwen has the beauty of the elves and some magic halo around her, she sang in a forest and he fell for here, love at first sight...blabla.
i know that such courtly love and romaticism is part of the world depicted by tolkien: universal themes picked in ancient writings, everlasting themes that ever reader can understand or pictured (plus perfection mingled with human flaws'...i have always been attracted by what makes man looks more human than kinglike; the fact that aragorn bases his wanderings on his quest for honour and the purification of his blood...i could dwell on it for ages,)
but here is my point: if we skip the romantic love that binds the two great heirs of middle-earth's new age, (in the movie more than ever i couldn't understand and see how strong is their love), i would like to know if you think that the wonderful moments that eowyn and aragorn shared in the two last books are more interesting and rich than aragorn's pursuit of some ideal in arwen's sacrifice, beauty and immortality.
i have to admit: i have been attracted by the desperate love of eowyn for the great aragorn, and their parting at dawn on barrow downs, before he goes to the paths of the dead. :eek: BUT i couldn't understand how on middle-earth aragorn could not return even a wee bit of her love!! How insensitive and rude...:mad: because lady arwen is nice to wait for her man, but eowyn would have been a smashing queen of the dunedains.

and yet, some fate working here, she meets faramir...yeah ok, that's a great chapter...and see! again this kind of romantic scene (that of the meetings and blossoming love between eowyn and faramir in the chapter entitled 'the steward and the king' in the third book) is far better than the reuniting of the royal couple!!
(i have to say that the flawless liv tyler doesn't help me reconciling with the character of arwen...)
well, thanks for your patience and don't be too rude if ever you are pro-arwen, it is my first big thread...:rolleyes:
 

Camille

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hello, you know I have read the TTT and the ROTK first and when I was at the ending of the ROTK I was really dissapointed because of Aragorn and Arwen!!! While I was reading I always thought that Eowyn and Aragorn finally would ended together, and that aragorn was only waiting to fullfiled his duty before taking care about love, but he had Arwen:( ,
I think it was Aragorn's fate, and Arwen too they are the third elf/man marriage, but .... I would love to see aragorn and eowyn together...
:rolleyes:
 

Mayberry

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Eowyn vs. Arwen

I, too, felt that way, Pointy Eared, until Faramir came on the scene. (What a guy!)

In the books, Arwen was this incredibly beautiful, but distant Elf maiden who sat home in Rivendell daintily embroidering a flag for her Royal Sweetheart. Arwen was briefly mentioned and sang a song in FOTR, but didn't really appear as a full-bodied character until the very end of the ROTK. Until I read "The Silmirillion," and learned about Arwen's incredible, mortal-marrying ancestor Luthien, I thought of Arwen as pretty window-dressing. I then read the ROTK for the third time, focusing on the bittersweet meeting between Arwen and her father Elrond before her family leaves her and ME for the Western Lands. It is fitting that elvish and mortal blood is mingled for the future of Gondor since the elves must soon leave ME to the care of mortals.

Before I really understood Arwen, I felt that Eowyn had more lines and motivation in the novels--thus more character. Disguising herself as a man and slaying the Lord of the Nazgul was pretty terrific stuff. I could understand why Eowyn first became infatuated with Aragorn who suddenly appeared at ME's darkest hour, was handsome, brave and slated to be King of Gondor should Sauron be defeated.

In the movie version, Arwen is this warrior she-elf. I'm a bit afraid that Arwen's character tweeking may take away some of Eowyn's "shield maiden" glory in the film. That is one of my only gripes about the movie. All in all, I enjoyed it. Of course, I liked the books better...
 
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Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Camille
they are the third elf/man marriage, but .... I would love to see aragorn and eowyn together...
:rolleyes:


High yáll but if you read the apendix at the end about Aragorn and Arwen or U.T you will understand the suffering, hardship and satisfaction they have had in their lives. Being the FOURTH ;) ;) pairing of man-elf of that line. They were made for each other and therefore should be together. Eowyn has a ,little whim only because of the heirachy and majesty of Aragorn and her annoyance at not being a loud 2 go 2 war and the fact that she marries Faramir justifies that.
 

Wood Elf

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Hey,
Now I know why Orlando Bloom origionally wanted the role of Faramir, he gets the chick! :) Hehe, you sly dog... :)
 

Grond

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I look at the whole Eowyn - Aragorn thing from a totally different perspective. I don't feel that Eowyn ever "truly" loved Aragorn. She loved the "thought" of Aragorn, in all his "High-king of Gondor and Arnor" splendor. He was a legend, as her brother put it, who had arisen out of the grass. He was high and regal. She had seen her entire life reduced to caring for a king rendered to dotage. She saw an avenue to the "highest and most regal" of status. Someone who would take her out of the reek and dotage.

Now to me.... that just doesn't sound like love. Aragorn, being just about the wisest Man in the world, recognised her affection for what it was and her true feelings reflect why she failed to respond to Aragorn in the Houses of Healing, instead responding to her brother Eomer. It is also only poetic that she should fall for the Man who looked beyond her glory on the field of battle and saw the true "woman" underneath. And it is right and just that she should fall for a Numenorean both like and unlike Aragorn.

Finally, it just couldn't have happened. Aragorn and Arwen had to be united to tie up all the loose ends of the half-elven and to reunite all the lines. The saddest part of the book was to me the description of Aragorn's passing and Arwen's trail of tears to Lorien where she passed away herself the next season.

It should be noted that Faramir is my favorite character in the book and that is why I feel he should get Eowyn. He deserved her!!!!:)
 

Elanor2

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I agree with Grond. The problem is that the true story of Aragorn and Arwen, their commitment and sacrifices that are the basis of true love and cannot be compared with Eowyn almost school girl-like love for the mature Aragorn, is not clearly explained at the beginning of LOTR. Only at the end it is shown.

Perhaps Tolkien decided to just brush the Aragorn-Arwen relationship at the beginning to give us a surprise at the end. It also adds ambiguity to the Aragorn-Eowyn relatioship. But it is only fully understood after several readings, and with the help of additional material.

I have the feeling that, in the movie, they are also trying to give more role to Arwen to compensate that. They will not put additional material there, like the appendix, or parts of the SIL, so they have to take the ambiguity off and show the Aragorn-Arwen relationship strong at the beginning, or their love story will not make sense. Pity that they overdid it at the expense of Frodo's role at the ford. That was the real faillure.

Regards. Elanor2
 
H

Harad

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Since you brought up Arwen at the Ford again, I am sorry that this so adversely affected your enjoyment of the movie. For me the movie was a three hour spectacle that showed Frodo's courage many times. I understood that the incident at the Ford of Rivendell was used for another purpose.
Perhaps you might remember how Frodo in the movie has enuf courage to remove the Ring at Amon Hen without the help of Gandalf, which he needed in the Book. Defying Sauron in compensation for defying the Nazgul--there's a trade that I could accept.
 

Elanor2

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Hi Harad,

Do not get me wrong. I enjoyed the movie and I think that, given the limitations of the movie media compared with the book, they did a great job. The whole beginning was beautifully done, and I love the Hobbit village and most of the caracters. The landscape was superb. I like also the idea to give more role to Arwen.

But there are two points in which I really disagree with the director, both related to the casting. Aragorn and Frodo are for me, even more than Gandalf, the pivot figures of the whole book. I love both, specially Frodo. The actors do a great job, but I always pictured them as strong and mature persons, and in the movie they look almost like pimpled troubled adolescents! And instead of compensating their looks by showing their inner strength, what happens? Fordo does not defy the Nazgul at the ford and Aragorn is not even sure if he really wants to be king. What a pity!

That's what really makes me angry. Well. I vented my feelings finally. Let's go back to the original subject. :)

Regards. Elanor2
 

Goro Shimura

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Regarding Arwen's role...

It would have been more in keeping with the spirit of the book to show Arwen at Rivendell... Perhaps with a single well done exchange of glances... (and a brief conversation between Bilbo and Aragorn)... we could have gotten the idea that *something* might be going on... but that work was to be done before anyone was going to "live happily ever after...."



I completely agree with Grond and Elanor2 about how the new Arwen ruins the contrast between the Arwen-Aragorn and Eowyn-Aragorn relationships.

Eowyn's now just going to be *another* girl that's "chasing" after this handsome hunk.

Arwen in the movie is indiscrete, aggressive, overly assertive, and she dominates Aragorn and controls their relationship. She comes off as a giddy teenager-- NOT a (what?) thousand year old Queenly austere immortal.

Oh... and Elrond should have commanded the river-- not her!



But to tie this in back into Aragorn-- the new Arwen undermines both his stature, his manliness, and his appearance of self-sacrifice and self-control.

Tolkien would have hated the changes-- no doubt about that!
 
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Harad

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Elanor2,
Since I disagreed with you about Frodo, I might as well disagree about Aragorn. His reluctance to be King is directly lifted from the book. Even in the book there is no indication that he would have returned to Gondor to claim the kingship, something that had not been done in many generations in his family. He does in fact (according to the Appendix) go to Gondor and serve Denethor's father faithfully as a warrior/stateman but then leaves Gondor to take up his Rangership in the North. Without the finding of the Ring, we presume he would have stayed in the the north, as his father and grandfather had. If you dont like this part of the movie, please blame the book.

The love between Arwen and Aragorn CAN BE a clear contrast with Eowyn, since the former is a well-established relationship as shown in the movie. Eowyn has to be "love-at-first-sight" or infatuation, and may be underlied by her fatalism, perhaps brought on by her uncle, Theoden King's, dotage. Arwen not only has a father who is seeing clearly and effectively, but is allowed a role of importance in life. Eowyn I hope is shown living under those unfortunate circumstances, unable to perform up to her capabilities. Just as PJ effectively contrasted Aragorn and Boromir, I can see him doing the same with Arwen and Eowyn. This remains to be seen.
 

Grond

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Harad, what book are you referring to? You certainly know that if Aragorn is unable to claim the Kingship of both Gondor and Arnor, he will never be united with Arwen. One of Elrond's conditions for allowing the marriage is the reestablishment of that realm. "...My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow nad parting -- but to you hope of joy for a while..." Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Harad, I can assure you that from that moment, when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age, he thought of little else than reuniting the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. He had already fought in the armies of both Gondor and Rohan. The reason he didn't press his claim in Gondor is explained in the appendix. His time wasn't right. He was not ready to put the faith of the people of Gondor to the test. He may have been able to get the people to accept him but Denethor was too proud and any assertion of his claim would have caused rebellion and strife in the kingdom; therefore, he waited.

So, having pulled all this together, I don't quite understand where on Earth, you're coming from with the uncertainty angle on Aragorn. It isn't illustrated in any book I've ever read by Tolkien. Do you have an alternate source?:)
 
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Harad

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I am sorry you dont understand the source material that you so profess to love. Its just a shame. If the Ring had not been found, there is no indication that Aragorn would have claimed the Kingship. He would have acted as his father and fathers father before him.
 

Mayberry

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Eowyn's Infatuation

I agree totally with Grond's assessment of Eowyn's relationship with Aragorn. That is how I preceived her "love" also. What Arwen and Aragorn forged together was love that was tested and true. Same with Faramir and Eowyn. Infatuation is a poor substitute and never fails to disappoint a person in the end.

I know some girls who will go out with any guy just because he is popular or cool, even if he treats them badly. It's an ego/insecurity thing, I guess. These girls tell me that I expect too much in a guy. They saw the movie version of LOTR's and thought that the guys were "cute," but wooden and unreal. Sadly, they are the kind of people who won't read the books so they will fail to see the beauty and depth of Tolkien's mythical romances.

Not that I'm waiting for the perfect White Knight on a horse... (However, liking horses is a plus!) Hopefully, I will marry a man who is honest, brave and willing to protect me and the freedoms that we share. Above all, I pray that he respects me as a human being and future mother of his children and not just a trophy to show off. (Although I also feel that there is nothing wrong with looking my best for him.) Hmmm. Maybe, I am asking for a White Knight. Well, he doesn't have to be perfect! :)

I once read that Tolkien (who was Catholic) felt closest to Luthien and Beran's romance from "The Silmirillion" because of the relationship with his fiance who was a Protestant. I guess that it sounds silly in the PC world of today, but marriages between Catholic and Protestant were rare and frowned upon in his day. Tolkien had to wait and go through a lot of pain before he and his future wife were finally married. From what I have gathered, the Tolkien marriage was a very good (not perfect) one. Just another thing to admire about the author...
 

Grond

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Originally posted by Harad
I am sorry you dont understand the source material that you so profess to love. Its just a shame. If the Ring had not been found, there is no indication that Aragorn would have claimed the Kingship. He would have acted as his father and fathers father before him.
Apparently you have an opinion that differs from mine. It is apparent to me that Aragorn's early participation in the affairs of both Gondor and Rohan were a precursor to his later return and claim of the Kingship, regardless of any status of the Ring. IMO, there is nothing in the world that would have kept Aragorn from, at the very least, trying to make the claim. In rereading the section, yet again, where Elrond and Aragorn speak of Arwen and the conditions for Aragorn to win her hand, the Ring is not even mentioned.

My suggestion Harad is that it is you who needs to reread the book. I've noticed entirely too many inconsistencies in your posts of late concerning the texts to believe that you have read them since viewing the movie. You cannot possibly speak of them with any certainty if you haven't recently read them. And, I understand them as I understand them. If you disagree with my conclusions, that is your right. Once again, you might want to look around you and see where the consensus of the forum lies. It appears to be more and more in my corner. Not that you might be wrong.... but maybe, just maybe the rest of us might be right. :)
 
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Harad

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The truth is not a popularity contest, nor a democratic vote. Aragorn did his stint in Gondor then left to resume being a Ranger. If the Ring had not been found what would distinguish him from the long line of Northern chiefs that never claimed the kingship of Gondor, despite the fact that it was their right every bit as much as Aragorn's. Before giving advice to others, follow the advice yourself. And not just read the book, but understand it.
 

Grond

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Harad, we are once again rendered to the same prior position that you know the book better than all of us. It is you who understands the works and the mind not only of the author but also of all the characters as well. I have presented my evidence. Aragorn would never have been content nor would he have remained a Ranger. He had already been told by Elrond, "Win the hand of my daughter? Get the High-kingship of Middle-earth." The works make it clear (if you ever read them) that it wasn't if Aragorn would have pressed his claim only when he would do it. That is my humble opinion, you are certainly entitled to yours.

Attacking my position with your own quotes is your normal "tactic" when you don't have any evidence. So I want everyone reading this to realize that Harad has not provided any evidence of his position, just his opinion. He feels his opinion which is substantiated with "nothing" is more informed than most of ours which is based in the writings.

BTW, he just told all of us that we haven't a clue what we've read or interpreted and that his is the only opinion that matters.
 

HLGStrider

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Harad, don't take this personally, but I really agree with Grond here (Not about you having to reread the books. It is always a good idea, but you are entitled to whatever opinion you care to have...).

I think that Aragorn loved Arwen enough that he would never take another mate and he could not have Arwen until he got the kingdoms (As Elrond had said.). He would've eventually made a try for the kingship, if only a desperate on. However, I believe that without the ring being found he would've been unable to gain it. Gondor was content with Stewards. They needed a reason to turn to a king. The ring and war that follows its finding set the stage.
I also think that both Elrond and Aragorn knew, deep inside, that the time was coming. Elrond had told Aragorn he would not take a wife until his destiny was complete (Not the exactly phrasing, but I am not going to go get the book and dig through the appendixes again...). He hadn't told this to Arathorn or any of Aragorn's ancestors. They knew the time was coming. They could feel it. Whether Aragorn was deeply considering taking the throne at age 20 when he had this conversation with Elrond is irrelevent. (Though at 20 he probably was filled with dillusions of granduer and in love so I imagine he thought he could do it within the next few months...).
I didn't like them saying that Aragorn didn't want the throne.
I've always had a picture in my mind (That is in no way in the books. I just invented it after reading about Aragorn serving in Gondor) of Aragorn staring at the statues in the hall of kings, reverent and in awe, wondering if he could live up to his ancestors' greatness.
Aragorn was humble. He did doubt that he had enough strength, but he was determined to try. He wasn't a whimp...

As for Eowyn, Grond you are all wrong there... Well, mostly wrong. Have you ever been a young girl with a serious crush (I certainly hope you haven't been... That would be weird...).
I fell in love with Aragorn, for goodness sakes! She couldn't help it. I still love the fellow... Aragorn was handsome. He was tall and noble. He was brave and had helped to rescue her beloved uncle. That he was a king might have come up in the mixture (I believe there is a comment about how "none seemed more kingly or noble to her than the Lord Aragorn...", but it wasn't needed. Perhaps it was an infatuation, but it was also a strong love. You can love a man without receiving any encouragement from him. You can love even if you have no chance. You can love, attributing things to him that aren't there (But with Aragorn most of them really were there.). Eowyn was in love. However, Aragorn was in love with Arwen. He also was about fifty years older than Eowyn... Which she probably didn't realize at the time... He was kind and understanding. She was heart broken that he wasn't more. She went off on a suicide mission and happily found her true love... That is one of the more wonderful things in the book. Don't put Eowyn down. I sympathize with her totally.
However, you shouldn't put Arwen down either. She had the strength to give up immortality and a father she loved. I love the story of Aragorn and Arwen. It was so beautifully sad. I love all the subtle references to their devotion (In Lothlorien on the hill and a few words to Galadriel, the scene where they are together in Rivendale in the room together and Arwen looks at Frodo...) That could've been done in the movie, but I believe there is more market if you can get a little physical in the relationship (I believe that Aragorn and Arwen were content with occasionally holding hands, half out of respect for Elrond's wishes, half because Aragorn would not want to awaken too much by physical passion, knowing that he might very well fail and she would be forced to go over the sea without him... or worse, stay and watch him wither and grow old as a beaten Ranger of the wild.) and have the female be in charge of things (Sickening... We've spent the last century downgrading masculinity...).
However, the kiss did look nice on the big screen, and I admit that I had a weakness for the spot myself.
I liked the movie, but I wish Arwen hadn't push Aragorn around so much...
I understand Aragorn's response to Eowyn and Eowyn's love for Aragorn. I think it ended up just right.
 

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