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Finarfin's choice

Finarfin's choice

  • Should he had stayed in Valinor

    Votes: 24 75.0%
  • Should he had lead his people in ME

    Votes: 8 25.0%

  • Total voters
    32

baraka

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Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to stay in Valinor after the Kinslaying in Alqualonde? Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.
 

Maedhros

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Choice

My half-uncle Finarfin, should have led his people in our time of need. I realize that what we did in Alqualonde was wrong, but to "abandon" his people was WRONG. He stayed loyal to the valar but shoudn't he have stayed loyal to his own people.:(
At least his sons understood this.:)
 

Camille

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I think he did tha right thing it they Noldor in their way to ME were taken to a hopeless war that only ended with the Valar intervention.
So he thought right.
 
M

Mormegil

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He should have led them to ME. To stop them following the folly of Feanor and his stupid sons.
 

Maedhros

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But didn't he as a prince had an obligation with the "majority" of his people. Remember, he was a noldorian prince, the third son of the king Finwe.
I really do not think that the war was hopeless. Take for example the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad. If it wasn't for the the plots of Ulfang they might have won that battle and the tides of the war would have been different.
Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight.
 

Camille

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Maedhros, the Noldor vr. melkor was a hopeless war, JRR Tolkien wrote it in one of his letters and Feanor realized it just before die I do not have the exact quotes right now but I will look for them.
and Remember that not all the Noldor went to ME someone had to stay in Aman to keep an eye on them :p (I mean Finarfin)
 

Maedhros

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Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them;
I still think that the united fronts of the Noldor and Men in ME could have defeated the armies of Morgoth. They almost did in Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I think that the Noldor shouldn't have taken the "impossible" argument. I don't think that anything is impossible unless you try it. Were would the inventions be if they were held to be "impossible" or "hopeless".
Remember that not all the Noldor went to ME someone had to stay in Aman to keep an eye on them
Well, i'm positive they could have chosen someone instead of a prince of the house of Finwe.
 

Camille

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From a letter by JRR Tolkien to Milton Waldman, 1951:

"The sons of Feanor take a terrible and blasphemos oath of enemity and vengeace against all or any, even gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli. They pervert the greater part of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise, and go to make HOPELESS war upon the Enemy."

I agree with you that nothing is impossible unless you try it but talking about the Noldor vrs Melkor it was impossible for them to deafeat him, not because they did not try but because Tolkien wrote it in that way, what would happend if they succeed? We will not have the Turin Turambar, the fall of gondolin and finally the Voyage of Earendil wich I thinks is one of the best ones.

that is why is my opinion that Finarfin made the right choice.
:)
 

Bucky

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Considering only Galadriel & Idril returned alive from ME out of the 19 members of the House of Finwe who went, I'd say it was a no brainer.

As for Finarfin leading 'his' people, weren't they Feanor's people as he was the High King of the Noldor?

And, if Finarfin did have any people under his authority, maybe doing what was best for them would have been to prompt them to stay by returning to Valinor. 10% did go with him after he turned back.
How many of those lives did he save?

It's like this country (the USA):
Our current president, George Bush is morally opposed to abortion.
Should he then help to pass funding to pay for women to get abortions if he knows in his heart it is wrong?
Or, should he stand for his principles within the legal powers he has?

Sometimes, being a leader means going against the majority based on your convictions & integrity alone.....


>>>I still think that the united fronts of the Noldor and Men in ME could have defeated the armies of Morgoth. They almost did in Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Had they defeated Morgoth there, the best they would've gotten was a return to the status quo prior to the 4th Battle: A partial seige of Angband.
Remember, "The full strength of the Eldar & Edain had only sufficed to hold Morgoth in leaguer & they had not even seen from afar a Silmaril." (paraphrase)
 
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Maedhros

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Considering only Galadriel & Idril returned alive from ME out of the 19 members of the House of Finwe who went, I'd say it was a no brainer.
So the deeds and all that the Noldor did then account for nothing because they died. They did more than any other kindred of the Eldar that stayed in Valinor. So the fact of staying "alive" is the main point, although doing nothing to avenge the death of your king. There are somethings that are worth fighting for. An ideal or a thought.
So the Noldor should have say: Well, our king is dead, and since the Valar do nothing, well let's sit here and sing and dance and do nothing. Beacause they tell us it's impossible, then there's no way we can do it. Yeah right.

As for Finarfin leading 'his' people, weren't they Feanor's people as he was the High King of the Noldor?
He was "technically" the High King of the Noldor.
For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Fëanor as King. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them; and thus at the last as two divided hosts the Noldor set forth upon their bitter road.
He would have helped his brother Fingolfin.

Sometimes, being a leader means going against the majority based on your convictions & integrity alone.....
Yes, and sometimes being a leader means going against your desires and lead your people when the going gets rough. When they need you the most.

Had they defeated Morgoth there, the best they would've gotten was a return to the status quo prior to the 4th Battle: A partial seige of Angband.
No, Morgoth had emptied Angband.
Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons.
Morgoth would have had to fight himself, because none remained there.
 

Camille

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Finarfin chose to stay in Valinor was after the kinslaying, do you remember that he and his brother fingolfin went with the host of the Noldor? He agree to follow his people but after seeing all that damage that the silmarilli quest he prefer to stay. that was the main reason confirmated by the doom of Mandos.

So the Noldor should have say: Well, our king is dead, and since the Valar do nothing, well let's sit here and sing and dance and do nothing.
The Valar would have do something if the Noldor had not acted like they did, look at the sil.

Yes, and sometimes being a leader means going against your desires and lead your people when the going gets rough. When they need you the most.
I do not agree, being a leader is look for what is best, if the people you comand, are in the wrong way you duty is to let them see and try to get them in the right choice.

Didn't Finarfin "owed" something to his people?
sorry I am not sure I undestand what you mean :eek:, Are you saying that it was his duty to reamind with his people?
 

Maedhros

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The Valar would have do something if the Noldor had not acted like they did, look at the sil.
Actually, the Valar have very slow reacting time. Look at how long it took them to finally capture Melkor before the coming of the Elves. And he was only one Vala. Perhaps they would have waited for a thousand years.

I do not agree, being a leader is look for what is best, if the people you comand, are in the wrong way you duty is to let them see and try to get them in the right choice.
Why couldn't he have done that in ME. Why didn't he tried to save the majority of his people. Why did he "abandon" them.

sorry I am not sure I undestand what you mean , Are you saying that it was his duty to reamind with his people?
I'm saying that because he was a "noldorian" prince, it was his "duty" to lead them (a part of them at least). I know of Fingolfin, but that doesn't free him of his responsability. The Noldor who stayed in ME had the Valar, the ones that went to ME had only those princes of the House of Finwe.
 

Camille

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about the Valar, Let me look for the quote of the sil, I will post it at night ( I am in my work now)
and about the Finarfin choice I think that we both have diferent points of view, I respect yours and I am not trying to make you think in other way, I just want to sate mine. You think he did it wrong because he has to be with his people wheter they were in good path or not.
Loyalty is a good quality but it does not mean that you have to support evil deeds just because you have to "stay with your people"
As I have said Finarfin went back to Valinor because the kinslaying and he did want to be part of it, remember that his wife was from the Teleri. neither Fingolfin nor finarfin went willingly.
 

Bucky

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Maedhros:

Just because Morgoth had emptied Angband doesn't mean that many, even most of his troops wouldn't have been able to retreat back into their fortress if 'the Eldar had won the day'.
Common military history would indicate they would've been able to.
And, Glaurung had retired from the battle already due to the knife wound from Azaghal, so he'd be waiting afterwards too.....

Now, by your way of thinking, the Valar waiting was wrong? Correct?

So, after 9-11, George Bush should have ordered us to nuke Afghanistan on 9-12?

>>>They did more than any other kindred of the Eldar that stayed in Valinor.

I would disagree, as the Vanyar were among those who OVERTHREW Morgoth and LIVED.
 

Maedhros

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Now, by your way of thinking, the Valar waiting was wrong? Correct?
The Valar had a history of waiting in engaging against Melkor. The Valar should have been more thorough after they had caught Melkor the first time. Searching Angband, etc.
The Valar knew it was Melkor, they should have acted more quickly and decisively.

Just because Morgoth had emptied Angband doesn't mean that many, even most of his troops wouldn't have been able to retreat back into their fortress if 'the Eldar had won the day'.
The Eldar, in such a battle would have "destroyed" most of his minions, thereby making an attack on Anggand entirely possible and with very high possibilities of victory.


as the Vanyar were among those who OVERTHREW Morgoth and LIVED.
The Vanyar were helped by: The Noldor in Valinor and the Valar.
Certainly, the Noldor who went to ME were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors.
Name one Vanyar who could beat: Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat.
 
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Grond

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The Valar had a history of waiting in engaging against Melkor. The Valar should have been more thorough after they had caught Melkor the first time. Searching Angband, etc. The Valar knew it was Melkor, they should have acted more quickly and decisively.
Why?? Both the Elves and the Valar are immortal. What does it matter if it takes them 10 years or 1000 years? Time is on their side!!
The Eldar, in such a battle would have "destroyed" most of his minions, thereby making an attack on Angband entirely possible and with very high possibilities of victory.
Attacks and sieges on Angband were never successful. You're either stating your opinion or have a crystal ball that the author didn't give us.
Do you have a fascination with G.W. Bush? 2 posts in a row.
As I noted in your post (in red type), this type of comment is both unnecessary and unrelated to the conversation. Please refrain from inviting conflict.
The Vanyar were helped by: The Noldor in Valinor and the Valar. Certainly, the Noldor who went to ME were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors. Name one Vanyar who could beat: Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat.
First off, what on Earth would make you think the Noldor were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors. That's like comparing an ant to an elephant. The Noldor were nothing when compared to the Valar. Heck, the Valar were as gods. Second, please name me one Vanyar who couldn't have beaten Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat. You can't, because the fighting abilities of the Faithful Vanyar were never written about in the Sil. I would imagine that the loyal Vanyar were quite valiant and skilled fighters, else their host would not have been effective in defeating Morgoth's forces. But... we'll never know and... you'll never know.
 

Bucky

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>>>> Do you have a fascination with G.W. Bush? 2 posts in a row. ***snide and unnecessary remark. Please post on subject and don't get
personal!***Grond

There was NOTHING snide or personal about it.

I think YOU are being a little judgemental.
You really have no way of knowing what my motives are, do you Grond?
:confused:

I was simply using similar real-life examples to establish my point in a fictitious world where we are speculating as if it had really existed.
That's all.

BTW, drop me a PM if you want to debate this issue any further.
 

Chymaera

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Finarfin made the right choice.

He followed till the Kin-Slaying, then seeing this repented his sin and returned home with like-minded of his people.
 

Lord Melkor

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Finarfin was wise, he understood how hopeless it was to oppose me, he understood that even the entire might of Noldor is no match against greatest of The Ainuri, He Who Arises In Might, Melkor, Lord OF All!
 

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