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Gollum the Indispensable

H

Harad

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Everyone knows that Gollum saved Middle Earth at the end of LOTR. But earlier when Frodo entered Morrrdorrr, Gollum was just as crucial. Is there any other way that Frodo and Sam could have found their way thru the Emyn Muil, Dead Marshes, and into Morrrdorr without that helpful little creature?
 

chrysophalax

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It is with fear and trembling that I enter this discussion, having
taken great pleasure in the surgical precision with which you carve
up those who don't know their stuff,but have little liking to endure
the same.However..
A possibility might be that had they had someone with them that might
have enlisted the help of the eagles,that might have given them a straight shot.After all, at Gandalf's behest they were rescued by
them.It is conceivable Gandalf could have sent them(the eagles) sooner to help accomplish their quest in a more timely fashion.Of
course then it may not have been as suspenseful and therefore not
as great a work as it is. Respectfully submitted...
 

Tar-Palantir

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Maybe the Emyn Muil (eventually), but I doubt very seriously if they'd have made it through the Dead Marshes. Would they have even tried? But even going around the Marshes, they still would have been stymied at the Morannon. As a matter of fact, Frodo was going to try the Black Gate until our hero talked him out of it. Could he have somehow gotten in safely? It doesn't seem likely. Frodo obviously knew of no other way. Gandalf seems not to have even considered Cirith Ungol - who knows how he would have gotten in had he stayed with Frodo? Ditto for Aragorn. So, it seems to me that Gollum was the only person in ME who could have gotten Frodo in the way he did, although I will allow for the fact that Gandalf (and maybe Aragorn) could have come to the conclusion at some point that CU was the way to go.
 

Greenwood

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Citing the Harad Doctrine that says anything a character says or does is merely JRRT coming up with a good story, I will toss in the view that without Gollum some other way through the Emyn Muil, the Dead Marshes, and into Mordor would have been provided by JRRT. :D
 
H

Harad

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Some interesting ideas have been posted:

1. Somebody still needs to describe how Frodo and Sam would have succeeded on their own.

2. I like Baraka's idea of bribing an Orc. However was there one instance in all of JRRT's works where an Orc parlayed with a good guy? I can't recall any interaction between the two sides except fights to the death.

3. Chrysophalax' suggestion that they "might
have enlisted the help of the eagles" is possible. The problem is that the eagles were is danger of being overexposed having been used twice in the hobbit, and twice in LOTR, with another use coming up at the end of LOTR. And as in several other threads, if the eagles could help in progressing to Mt. Doom, why not use them from the beginning?

4. I agree with Tar-Pal that "Gandalf (and maybe Aragorn) could have come to the conclusion at some point that CU was the way to go."

5. The new character, "Dem," enters on the outskirts of Mordor, perhaps one of the ancient race of original denizens, unhappy with the regime of Sauron, displaced by the evil hordes, and seeking vengence.

6. An earlier appearence of Faramir? A nice symmetry as Farmir helps the Quest succeed, as his brother was nearly responsible for its failure.
 
M

Mormegil

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I think that Gandalf or Aragorn could have got Frodo and Sam into Mordor. I also think that Faramir is a possibility.

I think that Frodo and Sam could have got into Mordor alone, without Gollum's help. They might have found the passageway to Shelob's lair by accident and lucked their way through.

Other than that, a new character might have been introduced. Maybe a Man of Gondor who had been captured and kept prisoner in Mordor, but escaped through a secret passageway. Frodo and Sam might bump into him and persuade him to help them.
I don't know how they would have made it through the Dead Marshes without Gollum though.
 

YayGollum

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Thank you so much, Gollum supporters! Yay Gollum Supporters! I can't really call you Gollum fans because none of you ever come to the Gollum Fan Club. :rolleyes: Of course, everyone knows my opinion. Gollum was the hero. The nasssty hobbits would have starved or died in the Dead Marshes. Sorry I couldn't come up with a scenario without him, it would have been stupid to try. He's just so great! Yay Gollum!
 

aragil

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The mountain ranger

There ain't no such thing as an impassable mountain chain. No matter how sheer those Mountains of Shadow are, there is a way to climb over them. Tolkien could have brought in Sir Faramir Hillary, or Ghan-beri-Norgay Sherpa to get them over the mountains without relying on thre failures of spiders or Orc-patrols. Or Gollum (although he was a pretty good climber).
 

Quercus

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Sorry guys, but you'll never convince me that Gollum saved ME. Gollum would not have gone to Mt. Doom on his own, he was following Frodo. Sam too was following Frodo. It was Frodo's steel will that set the course.

Yes it's true that Gollum guided Frodo and Sam through Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes, but that's only because Frodo made him swear on the precious.

As for who could have guided Frodo and Sam besides Gollum. Maybe Aragorn, but we all know that he had more important things to do!
 

baraka

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Sorry guys, but you'll never convince me that Gollum saved ME. Gollum would not have gone to Mt. Doom on his own, he was following Frodo. Sam too was following Frodo. It was Frodo's steel will that set the course.
Well, Gollum fell into the fire of Mt. Doom, destroying the ring and saving ME. I think that we all know that he didn´t do it willinly, but he did it nevertheless.
Yes it's true that Gollum guided Frodo and Sam through Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes, but that's only because Frodo made him swear on the precious.
So, he still lead them.
 

Tulidian

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It's funny how Gollum nearly destroys the world, but also saves it. If I remember correctly, he left the Misty Mountains and eventually came to Mordor and then obviously Sauron squeezed the information out of him, that a hobbit named Baggins had the ring. If it weren't for Gollum, Frodo would have had a very easy trip to Rivendell, and maybe farther, although Sauron would have most likely found out that the ring was in Rivendell. However, I too belive that Sam and Frodo wouldn't have found a way to Mount doom without Gollum, unless they met someone else along the road to help them.
 

My_Precious

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In a short answer: No, I don't think so.
Even being led by Gollum, Sam & Frodo were nearly killed or captured many times. Mordor didn't have any open ways inside, and the one that Sam & Frodo used was guarded by Shelob. As Gandalf said, even if Frodo was with Glorfindel or Aragorn, they wouldn't be able to fight all the orks of Mordor.
 

baraka

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even if Frodo was with Glorfindel or Aragorn, they wouldn't be able to fight all the orks of Mordor.
I wonder if Glorfindel would have been in the Fellowship, if he had allowed F & S to go into Mordor alone?:)
 

Goldberry

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All good points have been made.

IMO, Tolkien would have had to invent another secret way into Mordor or have one of the other characters know of secret way into Cirith Ungol. Both Gandalf and Faramir were afraid of Cirith Ungol. Aragorn was going to take him to the Black Gate, which Tolkien paints as an impossible way to get in. Tolkien made me think the secret way into CU was the only possible way in, and Gollum seemed to be the only one to know that. If they had known about Shelob, they might have been able to make their way through without being hurt. It was a dangerous way to go, with Shelob, but the only way to elude the eye.
 
H

Harad

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Aragorn or Gandalf may have started toward the Black Gate as Frodo did. They would then have either figured a way in or tried plan B as Frodo did. Both were aware of CU, and might have used some opportunity to sssssssssssssneak in. Gandalf, for example, had a few tricks up his sleeves to cornfuse the Watcher. He may have even befuddled Shagrat and Gorbag.
 
H

Harad

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Remember how the Ring got heavier and heavier to Frodo in Morrrdorrr even though he wasnt using it? Remember how the Watcher in the Water and the Orc Chieftain in Moria went after Frodo even though he wasnt wearing it? The Ring, worn or not, calls out to Evil. (Another incident at the Gladden Fields mentions this power).

Bottom line if the Ring could be ssssssssnuck, so could Gandalf. (Also remember Gandalf ssssssssssnuck into Dol Guldor).
 

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