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Grima's Tear

Michel Delving

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Absolutely: a tear of joy. Purely inspired by the might and power of the sight before him. Overwhelmed, his emotions spill.
 

Michel Delving

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He was stunned by the beauty before him. You need to look through his eyes and not your own. Have you never been overwhelmed by what your vision brought you? Joy in a dark heart is a dark winged thing.
 

BelDain

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I thought it was a tear of shocked joy.
Here he never though taking Helm's Deep would be possible but low and behold this big beautiful army awaited them outside. What a wonderful sight for him to behold. He was totally speachless and could only manage a single tear of extasy.
 

Valawen

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Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon
When I saw the film, I thought the tear was a sign that Grima was overwhelmed by the sight and the "beauty" of the power of Saruman's army, as it might appear to him.
Yes, this is what I thought. He's the type of coward who would side with the stronger force, even if it's evil. The sight of strength displayed by 10,000 Uruk-hai is awesome for him which is something he did not expect, I think.
 

Ithrynluin

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Originally posted by Niniel
I loved that. I think it was supposed to show that Gríma was shocked by Saruman's army. Gríma joined Saruman because he thought Saruman would win and he might get a powerful position under Saruman's rule. But Gríma never tought that Saruman's real purpose was to destroy the world of Men; he just thought Saruman would want to be the ruler of Men. But when Gríma found out what Saruman relly wanted, he realizid that everything and everyone he had once loved would be destroyed, and that he himself might not be better off when Saruman would win. Even if he would get powerful, he would always feel guilty about what he had done.
So he cried because he realized what he had done, and what that would mean: the destruction of the world, of which really no good could come.
This is exactly how I see it, and I think this was the intended meaning as well. I can't possibly understand how someone could view this as "tears of joy" or anything similar.
 

joxy

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Originally posted by Michel Delving
But some of us did, isn't that the point.
And even more to the point, if it produced so many different reactions - and I was completely baffled as to what it was about - then whatever PJ intended it to be for didn't work - like his insects scared of a Nazgul!
 

Phee

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Originally posted by joxy
then whatever PJ intended it to be for didn't work -
Not necessarily. As I said before, perhaps it was meant to be ambiguous. Perhaps it was meant to make you wonder a little about Grima's motives. If that was the intention, then I'd say the fact that there's a 2 page thread discussing it and that there are several different theories about what it means, means it was in fact very successful. It's made people get into Grima's head to wonder just what's going on in there, and all it took was a closeup shot and one little tear rolling down his cheek to get us all discussing the character. Seems pretty effective to me. :)
 

PRH

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I originally thought that this was a tear of awe in seeing Saruman's grand army. What changed my mind was coupling the tear with the earlier scene of Aragorn staying Theodens hand from killing Grima. The little maneuver is a very strong foreshadow that some good will come of letting Grima live (Aragorn will not be made to look like a chump). That good is probably the eventual killing of Saruman. The tear as a tear of remorse is the intermediate step between trusting Saruman enough to betray Rohan and hating Saruman enough to kill him.

By itself: tear of awe
Taken together with Gima being saved by Aragorn: tear of remorse


Here's the small hitch -- "they will have women, and children." How can Grima be encouraging Saruman to attack people of Rohan on the road to Helm's Deep, pointing out even the vulnerability of having women and children, then do such an about-face to remorse when Saruman unveils his plans to attack again at Helm's Deep? What has changed in Grima enough that he'd suggest attacking women and children and then change his tune a day later?
 

Gil-Galad

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Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon
When I saw the film, I thought the tear was a sign that Grima was overwhelmed by the sight and the "beauty" of the power of Saruman's army, as it might appear to him.
Yes I agree with you.Having in mind that Grima is presented as a real Gothic character I should mention that his tear is because of realizing the power of evil and the coming destruction.
 

Mirabella

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Originally posted by PRH
Here's the small hitch -- "they will have women, and children." How can Grima be encouraging Saruman to attack people of Rohan on the road to Helm's Deep, pointing out even the vulnerability of having women and children, then do such an about-face to remorse when Saruman unveils his plans to attack again at Helm's Deep? What has changed in Grima enough that he'd suggest attacking women and children and then change his tune a day later?
I have only seen TTT twice, both times in December, so admittedly my recollection may be a little fuzzy :) But mightn't Grima have been trying to dissuade Saruman from attacking the refugees as they fled to Helm's Deep?

I ask this because I interpreted the tear as a sign of remorse. I don't think it was ever part of Grima's plan for Rohan or indeed the world of Men to be anihiliated. When he saw the vast army Saruman had created, he realized at that moment any dream he had of ruling Rohan and winning Eowyn was gone.
 

Niniel

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I think at that point, he was just trying to say that they could have an easy victory over those who came from Edoras, before they were safe in Helm's Deep. Gríma had no idea that Saruman didn't want just one victory, but that he wanted absolute victory-destruction of the kingdom of Rohan, and after that destruction of all the wolrd of Men. When Gríma realized that that was Saruman's intention, he cried because he felt guilty for having been part of Saruman's plans and because he realized that, if Saruman's army won, he would not be better off: Saruman would want either to kill him anyway, or maybe he would get the powerful position that he had hoped for, but he would feel guilty about it for the rest of his life.
 

LadyDernhelm

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This was very interesting for me to read.

When I first saw the movie, on opening day, the first time, I immediately knew what it was (or at least, my interpretation of it). My mom, sitting beside me, concluded exactly the same thing.

If you'll remember, the tear escapes right after Saruman makes a comment about "leaving none alive". I immediately thought that Gríma, worm that he is, was crying for the fact that Éowyn, the woman he desired, would be killed. That tear is REPULSIVE to me...*shudders*
 

Telpeamarthiel

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It's been fun to read all of the deep thought everyone has put into this scene. I just simply thought that Grima was a disgusting, poisoned man whose skin was pallid, lips were purplish, teeth were yellow and whose eyes were watery and seepy all the time. Didn't a tear roll down Grima's cheek when Eomer grabbed his face? Or was it when he was talking to Eowyn next to Theodred's death bed? I thought he had a hankie to wipe his continually oozing eyes and mouth. Morbid yes, but I thought this spoke to his inner sickness and malice.
 

Ol'gaffer

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This is just my thought. Think back at the conversation that Saruman and Grima had just before the balcony scene with the speech with "No dawn for men."

Saruman: If the wall is breached, Helm's deep will fall.

Grima: Even if it is breached it would take a number beyond reckoning to capture it, THOUSANDS!

Saruman: Tens of thousands.

Grima: But my lord we don't have such power.

Then they enter the balcony and you can actually see Grima's startled look when the giant army roars with pride when they see their lord. The single moment of shock is enough for Grima (who is just a normal man) to realize the full extent of Sarumans plans to kill everyone, then when saruman makes his speech about the lands of rohan being drowned in blood. It's just too much for Grima. True, he wanted Eomer to die and he wasn't too keen on Theoden either but he knew that if all those Uruk-Hai's were to storm Helm's Deep and use Sarumans invention with it, Eowyn would also die and all the woman and children along her. This was too much for a man that was once good to handle. I believe that this was shock and repent in grima that produced this tear.

But that's just me.
 

Phee

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Originally posted by Telpeamarthiel
Didn't a tear roll down Grima's cheek when Eomer grabbed his face? Or was it when he was talking to Eowyn next to Theodred's death bed? I thought he had a hankie to wipe his continually oozing eyes and mouth. Morbid yes, but I thought this spoke to his inner sickness and malice.
You're right, he did seem to be oozing all the time. Slimy creature that he is. Though I do think the tear when he saw the army was quite deliberate, whatever it meant.

I also loved that when he was walking around, the sound of his clothes dragging on the floor made a hissing, snake-like sound. Only happened when he was in Edoras though, I didn't noticed it once he got to Orthanc. He'd lost his reptilian edge by the time he got there. ;)
 

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