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Guilds, State Your Opinion!

Eriol

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Fellow members of the Tournament, the time is approaching when the unofficial Rules draf will become the official rules of the Tournament. According to Aulë, this is to happen prior to the beginning of Round 4, and after the judging of Round 3.

I urge all Guildmasters (and other members, of course) to take a look at these rules.

However, there is an even more pressing matter. Nóm has made a strong argument in favor of a change in a rule (check the Rules thread to see the argument developing).

As the rules stand NOW, if a non-Judge posts an opinion about the debate in the Judging thread before the Judging is over, it open the possibility of penalizing his Guild IF, AND ONLY IF, the Host deems that this opinion was an attempt to influence the Judges. This Rule, of course, does not apply only to "opinions"; any post in the Judging thread that can be construed as an attempt to influence the judges can result in a penalty.

The change in the rules proposed by Nóm is to nullify this possibility, if the post by a non-Judge is vote or an opinion (I suppose she agrees with penalizing posts that, for instance, bully the judges). This would make it possible for any member to post his opinion in the Judging thread at any moment, without penalty.

PLEASE -- look at the Rules thread to check on the rationale behind both rules, the present and the suggested, and SPEAK here on this thread.

I'd like, if possible, a statement by each Guild-master saying Yes or No to the proposed change.

Thanks for your attention.

;)
 

Confusticated

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As the rules stand NOW, if a non-Judge posts an opinion about the debate in the Judging thread before the Judging is over, it open the possibility of penalizing his Guild IF, AND ONLY IF, the Host deems that this opinion was an attempt to influence the Judges.
Wrong.

As the rule is written right now, no one can post opinions even after the judges have.

Why not just leave the rule at 'if a host thinks something wrong is going on... blah blah blah they get someone in trouble'?
 

Eriol

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Originally posted by Nóm
As the rule is written right now, no one can post opinions even after the judges have.
Agreed, and I stand corrected. Though this is one case in which a lawyer would argue that "the clear intent of the law" was not to forbid posts AFTER the judging is over...

Just an example of careless drafting by me. I hope there isn't any more.

To forbid posts after the Judging is over is so nonsensical that I feel tempted to edit the rule immediately. Still, perhaps the Guilds disagree with this editing...

By the way, if there are no opposing opinions in this thread by the time the rules are to be officialized, I will change the wording of the rules to what Nóm is proposing, since every opinion I've heard so far is neutral or in favor of it. So if any Guild is against that, he'd better speak up...
 

Beleg

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Personal Opinion.

Any person is liable to post in the judging thread; after or before the judges have given their verdict; as long as his/her post deals with the judgement of the debate.
 
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Lhunithiliel

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No, Beleg, I'm afraid there is certain misunderstanding in your words!

First of all, and I am speaking NOT as a Guild Master now,

>> No one should be allowed to post in the debate thread. this place is only for the posts of the debators.

>> in the judgment thread a non-judge IMO, MUST be allowed to post ONLY AFTER all 5 judges have already stated their "verdict" on the respective debate. Otherwise, I am afraid, the judgemnet threads will be overcome by total confusion and chaos. I say: "Let the judges finish their job and then let all others who wish post their opinions too".
 

Beleg

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Lhun, the word "Debating" was only a slip of tongue. The word I intended was "judging".
 

Ithrynluin

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Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
[BOtherwise, I am afraid, the judgemnet threads will be overcome by total confusion and chaos. I say: "Let the judges finish their job and then let all others who wish post their opinions too". [/B]
Have you even seen any of the judgement threads of the debates that took place in the past? There was hardly any feedback on many of them, let alone total confusion. Making non-official judges post AFTER the 5 only disencourages them and makes the chances that they will ever post their opinions even slimmer. We must encourage this not the other way around.
 

YayGollum

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Doobedoobedoo...let me see here. I don't see why we should be evil and toss restrictions at people who are just having fun with reading debateses. The judges are the people that should be serious about what they're doing in the thread just for them, not the types that are just having fun. You know what would be cool? To grab everyone who's ever judged in these debates just to see how they do it. I read the debate, come up with my opinion, then post it in the judging thread. The only people I pay attention to are the ones debating. Sure, I'll read other people's opinions, but they don't change my mind. Why should I care what they think? I already decided.
 

Chymaera

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Whatever the rule; as long as it is left up to the Host's discretion. Things should be fine.

If someone breaks the general rules leave that to the Moderators.

A little "hand shake" in the judging thread after the debate is nice for the participants, good sportsmanship and all that. :)
 

Turgon

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I don't see the problem with people posting in the judgement thread either. The posts of the other judges are much more likely to affect an official judge than those of an interested poster - if a judge is doing his job correctly then he or she will be fair and unbiased - if not then it is irrelevant anyway. Will the next idea be for all judgements to be PMed in secret to the debate host?

Let things stand, in past debates ere things began to take a serious turn we had polls, and anyone who voted on a poll was free to give their verdict. More often than not these poll voters gave their verdict before the official judge and not once did a problem arise. I judged many times in the past and I can honestly say these verdicts didn't affect my decision. So then where is the problem?
 

Eriol

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This is the reading of Rule 8, item (c), now:

c) No posts in the debating thread shall be made in an attempt to influence the judges, either by the debating members or by other members of any Guild; the Judging thread shall be a place in which opinions are set out as simply as possible, and only the Judges shall expound on their reasons for a vote;

I will change it to the following reading unless there is an uproar :D :

c) No posts in the Judging thread shall be made in an attempt to influence the judges, either by the debating members or by other members of any Guild;

Please remember that the person in charge of deciding whether a post is an attempt to influence the judges or not is the Host, and only the Host.

So, I'll be waiting for the uproar. If none comes, this is how the rule will stand when it is posted on the Scoring/Schedule thread as the official rules.
 
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Maedhros

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Originally posted by Eriol
No posts in the debating thread shall be made in an attempt to influence the judges, either by the debating members or by other members of any Guild;
I think that you need to clarify this. All the posts I made during a debate are for influencing the judges to my position in the debate.

I have no problem with people posting their opinions on the judging thread before the opinion of the judges. If a judge is going to alter his decision based on another person opinion, wouldn't a judge that has posted his could affect them too?

My concerns about the Tournament are not about formalisms or the judging. I'm concerned about the values. For example, I found extremely sad that in one debate one party tried to change the subject of the debate. This saddens me because, it would appear that the objective is winning and not discussing Tolkien. But the saddest thing are the people who volunteer for a debate and then bail on their team. If you post that you are going to participate then do so, it's not fair for your teammates. That is shameful.
 

Lhunithiliel

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Originally posted by Eriol

I will change it to the following reading unless there is an uproar :D :

c) No posts in the debating thread shall be made in an attempt to influence the judges, either by the debating members or by other members of any Guild;
I think:

"c) No posts in the JUDGING thread shall be made in an attempt to influence the judges, either by the debating members or by other members of any Guild. :D
 

Eriol

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Originally posted by Maedhros
I think that you need to clarify this. All the posts I made during a debate are for influencing the judges to my position in the debate.

I have no problem with people posting their opinions on the judging thread before the opinion of the judges. If a judge is going to alter his decision based on another person opinion, wouldn't a judge that has posted his could affect them too?

My concerns about the Tournament are not about formalisms or the judging. I'm concerned about the values. For example, I found extremely sad that in one debate one party tried to change the subject of the debate. This saddens me because, it would appear that the objective is winning and not discussing Tolkien. But the saddest thing are the people who volunteer for a debate and then bail on their team. If you post that you are going to participate then do so, it's not fair for your teammates. That is shameful.
Correct on all accounts. Lhun has spotted the mistake.

(I was hasty in my last post, because I want to get rid of this job :D).

It will be edited at once.

EDIT: The rules are now OFFICIAL, and posted on the Scoring/Schedule thread. This modification (Judging x Debating thread) on rule 8c will be added by FoaT when he gets in today, I think -- I already sent a PM.

Thanks for your cooperation.

*Eriol goes into retirement*

:D
 
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