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How do they know?

ginodauri

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Hi All ,
I'm new to the forum.
Recently i have been watching movies after long time , i was again fascinated by lore , and started asking many questions.
And mostly all questions have satisfactory answer , except one that is important , and i havent found satisfactory answer.

And that is , where ring was made and how it should be destroyed?
So as i understand:
Celebrimbor made 3 elven rings , sauron made one ring (secretly) , after putting on one ring , elves perceived that he would be master of them.
Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.
So question is , how elves(elrond) knows , that ring was made in mount doom , and how it should be destroyed.
Because sauron made ring secretly , so for me is hard to believe , that he would leave any possibility for anyone else to know how and where it was made?
Also it is hard to believe that Celebrimbor or any other elves have greater power than sauron , and somehow was able to know these things.
And because this is crucial part of the story i feel like it needs clear explanation , not just speculation.
Any thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance
 

Squint-eyed Southerner

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Welcome to the forum, ginodauri!

An interesting question. Have you read "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion? If not, there are some quotes in a older thread:


I don't know if Tolkien ever made an explicit statement of how, exactly, it was known where the One was forged, but from the descriptions in the essay, plus scenes in LOTR, it seems that Sauron would have known the locations of the Three, if they were worn. The logical extension of the idea would be that the Elves, wearing their own rings, would also know ("see") Sauron putting on the One, and where it happened.

But that, as you say, is speculation on my part.

If you look through older threads here, you'll find more discussions on the subject.
 

Olorgando

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Hi All ,
...
And that is , where ring was made and how it should be destroyed?
...
And because this is crucial part of the story i feel like it needs clear explanation , not just speculation.
If you mean a clear explanation from JRRT himself in writing, you are probably asking for the impossible.
Especially as far as things we would call "supernatural" go, he stayed away from being explicit, as do pretty much all authors of the fantastic.
By their nature in such stories, these things are mysterious and unexplainable to us humans, and will remain so.

The best we can do is take up hints that JRRT himself wrote, which all point to a form of telepathy, quite popular in tales of the fantastic.

In Appendix B in "The Return of the King", in the Tale of Years for the Second Age, the entry for c. 1600 has "Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. … Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron."

In "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion mentioned by Squint-eyed Southerner above there is the following:
"And while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings."
As it says "they" this must mean Gil-galad, Galadriel and Cirdan, to whom Celebrimbor had first given the three Great Elven Rings for safekeeping.

After Sauron had lost his One Ring at the end of the Second Age, there is a passage in "The Fellowship of the Ring", Book Two, chapter VII "The Mirror of Galadriel" when Galadriel explains to Frodo, who has just seen Sauron's one eye in the mirror: "I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!"
So without the One Ring, the situation appears to be reversed for Sauron. Now the bearers of the three Great Elven Rings, or at least Galadriel, can perceive him, but prevent him from doing the same the other way around.

And last, in "The Return of the King", Book Six, chapter VI Many partings it is said of Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf: "Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labors in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thought went to and fro."
 
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Merroe

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As Squint-eyed Southerner suggested, you’ll find some answers in the Silmarillion, in particular in "Of the Rings of Power".

The Rings were made in Hollin, where the Elves long stayed:

Only in Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyond the Ered Luin. Eregion was nigh to the great mansions of the Dwarves that were named Khazad-dûm, but by the Elves Hadhodrond, and afterwards Moria. From Ost-in-Edhil, the city of the Elves, the highroad ran to the west gate of Khazad-dûm, for a friendship arose between Dwarves and Elves, such as has never elsewhere been, to the enrichment of both those peoples. In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin.

In those days there was still friendship also with Sauron, who concealed his hatred for the Elves, and he spied on their works and woul;d therewith know much of what they created:

They [= the Elves] learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of an that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.
Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring.
Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

I suppose you may find some part of the answers in these texts. As you may notice, it is a rather hopeless undertaking to try and understand JRRT’s works, only by looking at movies which moreover deformed the original tales quite considerably!

PS - I noted some overlap with Olorgando - sorry for that!
 

ginodauri

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Thanks for answers.
So only thing that is logical , i think , that when sauron put on one ring , elves would be able to "peek" into his mind , and be
able to see all the truth.
But this interpretation , also leaves question , if they were able to do that than , does that mean that when sauron had one ring on ,
elves would be able to "read" his mind all the time he had ring on.
That would mean that elves would know all his intentions in advance , and that also do not seems logical.

If question of how one ring should be destroyed , was left a little bit open in story , like "PROBABLY that one ring should be destroyed in mount
doom" , than i think it would not be problem , but everyone is SUPER convinced that this is only way.
 

Olorgando

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...
So only thing that is logical , i think , that when sauron put on one ring , elves would be able to "peek" into his mind , and be
able to see all the truth.
But this interpretation , also leaves question , if they were able to do that than , does that mean that when sauron had one ring on ,
elves would be able to "read" his mind all the time he had ring on.
That would mean that elves would know all his intentions in advance , and that also do not seems logical.
...
Just as an aside, scientific logic does not get us very far with the supernatural ...

I'll quote from Merroe's above:
And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

This goes beyond telepathy. This borders on (though my guess is JRRT would have balked at going quite so far) telekinesis.
That the wearers of the other Great Rings would become "puppets on a string" to him.
It worked very well with the Nine Rings of Men, for after they had become the Ringwraiths, Sauron collected all of their rings, but the Ringwraiths still remained utterly under his power even though they were no longer wearing them.
It failed spectacularly with the Seven Rings of the Dwarves, as they had been created by the Vala Aulë to resist even the evils of Sauron's former boss, the renegade Vala Morgoth / Melkor (Sauron was "only" a Maia), "made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination …". It did increase their one natural "weakness", the greed for treasure, which in turn attracted dragons, who destroyed four of the seven Dwarven rings - by eating their wearers!
So the Elves knowing all his intentions in advance did not help them as long as they wore their rings. And as per Merroe's above post, by far the main objective of Sauron's One Ring was the dominance of the three Great Rings of the Elves, forged by Celebrimbor alone, while the other 16 (and perhaps lesser rings) "Sauron guided their labors". The keepers of these special three took them off after realizing his intentions. It would seem that none of the wearers of the other 16 ever did so (but JRRT never elaborated on that either).

...
If question of how one ring should be destroyed , was left a little bit open in story , like "PROBABLY that one ring should be destroyed in mount
doom" , than i think it would not be problem , but everyone is SUPER convinced that this is only way.
This might be explained by a "fact" of Middle-earth (or actually Arda, including Valinor) that might have escaped many readers. The four greatest Valar are "personifications" of the four "elements" as per antiquity (in Europe meaning classical Greece, basically Socrates, Plato and Aristotle). Manwë is the Vala of the airs, Ulmo that of the waters, Aulë that of the earth, and Melkor / Morgoth that of fire. In his nihilistic destructive urges, Melkor creating volcanos to serve his purposes makes "sense". So any volcano could be a remnant of the activities of Sauron's former boss, and thus special to Sauron. And as it lay very far in the east of Middle-earth from a viewpoint of the action of the First Age in Beleriand - Eriador, basically where Elendil established the Northern Dúnedain kingdom of Arnor (and where the Shire lies) was "near east" from this perspective. Anything east of the Misty Mountains would have been middle, if not far east by that measure. Perhaps Orodruin (pure speculation) had been a "special volcano" for the baddies all along. There is a "gap" in Sauron's "biography" after Huan the Hound of Valinor nearly destroyed Sauron's bodily form in helping Beren and Lúthien at the First-Age Minas Tirith. He disappears from the action after that, apparently being busy "off east", which may have led to those First Age Easterlings arriving in Beleriand.

And then, using a volcano as a forge - and a special volcano at that - makes any run-of-the-mill forges probably used by Elves and Men (the Dwarves may have had more potent ones) look like a candle on a birthday cake. Simply by the overwhelming force of the One Ring's power - and probably because Sauron put it on right next to the Cracks of Doom in Orodruin after having finished it, he could probably put it on while it was at least red-hot - it gave this place of making, and only possible place of destruction, away to Elves who at that time were already several thousand years old, and were on to the machinations of Morgoth and his subordinates, of whom Sauron was the chief.
 
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Squint-eyed Southerner

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I think a careful reading of the passages cited by Merroe can answer your first question. Sauron was one of the Maiar, a "heavenly being", far greater in power than the Elves, "And much of the strength and will of Sauron poured into that One Ring". Leaving aside Sauron's influence on ring-making by the Elves, the power balance was asymmetrical from the beginning.

Further, notice the wording here: "he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them". I don't take this to mean it would instantly turn them into remotely controlled robots or puppets, but rather a process working in the same way as it did upon Men and Dwarves, if possibly faster and more completely: the Elves were, in any case, immediately aware of the danger, so took off their rings at once. So I'd say that yes, the Elves would likely have been able to "read" Sauron's thoughts and designs, if they wore their rings, but that would have done them no good, because in doing so, they would,sooner or later -- likely sooner -- have become enslaved to him.

Edit: I see Olorgando beat me to the punch while I was one-fingeredly typing, but I'll leave my post unchanged. It may appear that we have conflicting views about "puppets", but I think we're in fundamental agreement -- I just think the effect would not necessarily be immediate. But it would happen, in some sense. Perhaps a parallel would be the effect of the One one those who possessed it: slow on some -- Bilbo -- immediate on others -- Smeagol. Or the various effects on people using a palantir.

Mr. O is certainly also right about the fire connection: Melkor is a "fiery" being, and used his powers for ill from the very creation of Arda, when he "kindled great fires".

Fire is made to carry a great deal of complex symbolic meaning in Tolkien's works -- too complex to go deeply into here; as you explore the book forum, you'll find a number of discussions touching on it. Enjoy the ride!

PS: Here's one -- an old one, dredged from the Pit by Erestor, our Resurrector in Chief:


It went off topic a bit, as these things tend to do, but was recently dragged back to the original subject.
 
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the--hobbit

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If you mean a clear explanation from JRRT himself in writing, you are probably asking for the impossible.
Especially as far as things we would call "supernatural" go, he stayed away from being explicit, as do pretty much all authors of the fantastic.
By their nature in such stories, these things are mysterious and unexplainable to us humans, and will remain so.

The best we can do is take up hints that JRRT himself wrote, which all point to a form of telepathy, quite popular in tales of the fantastic.

In Appendix B in "The Return of the King", in the Tale of Years for the Second Age, the entry for c. 1600 has "Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. … Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron."

In "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion mentioned by Squint-eyed Southerner above there is the following:
"And while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings."
As it says "they" this must mean Gil-galad, Galadriel and Cirdan, to whom Celebrimbor had first given the three Great Elven Rings for safekeeping.

After Sauron had lost his One Ring at the end of the Second Age, there is a passage in "The Fellowship of the Ring", Book Two, chapter VII "The Mirror of Galadriel" when Galadriel explains to Frodo, who has just seen Sauron's one eye in the mirror: "I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!"
So without the One Ring, the situation appears to be reversed for Sauron. Now the bearers of the three Great Elven Rings, or at least Galadriel, can perceive him, but prevent him from doing the same the other way around.

And last, in "The Return of the King", Book Six, chapter VI Many partings it is said of Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf: "Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labors in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thought went to and fro."
Well put.
 

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