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How do you take the meaning of "The Lord [of the Rings]"?

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Misarrius

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How do you take the meaning of "The Lord"

This question is not realy poped up by myself.
I was writing in the BBS of LOTR in Japanese, and One person poped up the question.

"Is the meaning of 'The Lord of the rings' only "Sauron"?
I saw a front page picture of an English paper book, and there is a big ring(one ring) over a lot of small rings. Then, I understood that the meaning of "The lord" might be a "One Ring" itself too, doesn't it?"

Then, there is one background that not so many people agrees to this idea in Japanese.
If you ordinarily translate the word of "The lord" into Japanese, the meaning will be mainly "Mr." like.
Yet, I believe that "The lord" could sugest "One ring" to rule them all, other "Rings", as a lord of ring.
Thus, One ring which is "The Lord of the Rings".

I want to hear an opinion from you who use English as your original tonge. Additionaly, I will be very glad if somebody can post any infomation about this topic debated in the past by any "Tolkien-Lore" officialy.
 
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darkmane

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ahh i get ya
yeh good point
ive only thought of it as 'sumone' who is the lord of the rings not a ring being lord of the rings
im interested also on this topic
ill hav to keep an eye on this thread
 

Greenwood

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The Lord of the Rings is Sauron.

In the chapter "Many Meetings" in Fellowship of the Ring when Merry and Pippin first see Frodo after his recovery Pippin calls him "Lord of the Ring". Gandalf chides him: "Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them. The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor, whose power is again stretching out over the world!"

Thus we have a clear statement from Tolkien as to who is "The Lord of the Rings".
 
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ReadWryt

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I'm certain, from the context in which Tolkien has Gandalf use the term, that "Lord" is meant in the same manner as it is when refering to a Land Holder. Sauron was the creator of the Rings in that the Elves would never have forged any of them, nor would any have been made and distributed, had the Dark Lord not conceived and distributed them, then made the One Ring with which he could controll events surrounding them.
 

LotR_Girl

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In Yugoslvia (HERE!!!) It's translated like... the Master or Owner of the Rings. Ya know, like someone who owns rings...
And I think it's the right meaning. Yeah, it is deffinitly SAURON. But it's stupid to name da book 'Sauron', isn't it?
 

DGoeij

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Funny thing is, in the Netherlands, the title "Lord of the Rings" is translated with: In de ban van de ring. Meaning literally translated, Under the spell of the ring.
To make it more clear, Gollem was severely 'in de ban van ' the Ring and a real fan is truly 'in de ban van' professor Tolkiens work.
I've read LOTR both in Dutch and English, and I have to admit as much others do, that the translator did quite a good job.

But Gandalf most clearly states who is Lord of the Ring, and since the One Ring rules them all, its automatically the Lord of the Rings, right? The title is darn good chosen anyway, leaves room for thoughts like this.
 

Moonbeams

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In Croatia, the title means "the one who rules the rings".
I belive the title was ment for Sauron.
But I see what you are saying. It could also mean that the One Ring was the ruler and lord of all others, as it says in the song:
"one ring to rule them all..."
So, if the title "Lord" can be applied to something other than a living being, it could stand for the ring. But since, I belive, "Lord" can be a preson only, it was ment for Sauron.
 

Hirila

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The German translation of "Lord of the Rings" is "Der Herr der Ringe"

And this has exactly the same double-meaning tha the English original.
In German the word "Herr" is used like ordinary "mister" when talking to a person ("Herr Meyer")
But it is also used when talking of a noble person. Then it has the meaning of "master", "lord".

So in the German title the "Herr" could be both Sauron as the one who made the ring and legally owns it and also the Ruling Ring as the master of all the other rings.
 

J'ohn

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Hmmm...the greek translation of "Lord of the Rings" means "Lord of the Rings"...pretty unoriginal, huh...;)

Anyway...
Quick thinking there, Misarrius!

Apparently enough, "Lord of the Rings" refers to Sauron.
At least literally.

Many book titles have an obvious meaning, and a hidden one.
The book is a saga of the One Ring. Not a saga of Sauron. In fact, Sauron makes no direct appearence whatsoever, in the book.

In my copy of the books, on the very beginning, even before the contents page, there's that little "poem" about the Rings ..."Three for the Elf-lords" etc etc...isn't that interesting, now?

I think that the title may well, subtly, refer to the One Ring.

SBS:)
 

lilhobo

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tis an interesting title and one that should make JRR smile with irony.....why have a title for the Lord that we hardly ever directly see mentioned...especially a title thats very specific with the article "The" at the front

Its also interesting to note that noone actually controls the rings, not even the One ring, not Isildur, Bilbo nor gollum

and Sauron was slain by Gil galad and Elendil, so he never had control of the 3 rings
 

Bucky

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I don't see what difference the title means in another language.....
Tolkien wrote it in English, he meant 'The Lord of the Rings', which as someone stated, Gandalf plainly says is Sauron.

I know a pastor who was a missionary in deepest, darkest Panama. The Kuna Indian tribe he was working with needed the bible translated.
One scripture says "He who began a good work in you is faithful to carry it out to the day of completion".
The only interrpretation he could get in their language that they could understand was "God is able to completely strip the bark off you (like they did to a tree to make a canoe)"

Does that change the original intent of the author?
No.
There are always inequities in going from one language to another.
 
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Misarrius

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Thanks for a lot of mensions

darkmane;

I'm pleased to get your attention :)

Greenwood;

Exactly the same line many people pointed in the Japanese BBS.
Literally meaning, I agreed with this opinion.

By the way, just now I've realized, Gandalf said "The lord of ring" but not "The lord of rings". I didn't realize till now because those are the same words in Japanese, because Japanese Language doesn't use plural on this point.
Does this point make you something difference or not?
(It's difficult to really get the hidden meaning for me)

ReadWryt;

You get it. "made the One Ring with which he could control events surrounding them" but finally even he couldn't control One Ring to come back to his own hand.

LotR_Girl;
DGoeij;

Hi to the lad from Yugoslavia and Netherlands :)
You can imagine how I deadly want to read this book in English as a native tongue.

Moonbeams;

That￾fs exactly the point that I want to know. The word "The Lord" can or cannot be used regarding other than a living-thing? I would like to ask who of you speaks English as original tongue.

Hirila;

Oh, you could clear the point that I wanted to say.

J'ohn;

I just checked the part you mentioned. Woo, I just didn￾ft read the part till now!
>I think that the title may well, subtly, refer to the One Ring.
It sounds like TOEFL test (If you know about TOEFL test :D)
Yes, I agree with you, regarding the hidden meaning.


lilhobo;

In that point of view, I think "One Ring" had the potential to rule the other rings and the "Ring(s)-bearer". Sauron has special connection with "One Ring", yet he even lost the location (and existence) of "One Ring" for long. And as you mentioned, "One Ring" couldn't control Gil-galad and Elendil to slain Sauron and removed from its belong.
So seems to me, "One Ring" had its own destiny in the story even Sauron could barely foresee.
By the way, I'm now wondering, "Gil-galad" and "Elendil" had (or wore) "Elven-ring" and "Motal men-ring" when they slain Sauron? I've guessed they were not. If they had, they were not supposed to be able to go against the One Ring￾fs force.



How about this now.
Sauron was "The lord of the Ring (One Ring)"
and
One Ring was "The lord of the Rings (include the Ring holders in the same manner of 'One ring to rule them all...')"

Bucky;

Absolutely. That's why I should like to know the "Deep" author's intention.
Oh, If we could ask him in heaven! would not it be wonderful ;)

By the way, the title of this book in Japanese is "Ring story". This is the other point which is making people debate in the Japanese BBS.The new movie's title should be which one of them (the movie will come to the Japanese theaters on this spring finally).
 

DGoeij

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I wish you good speed in reading LOTR in English if its not your native language. Some of it can be somewhat hard to grasp the first time. But since you've allready read it in your own language (as I understood), that should be helpfull.

Too bad you have to wait so long for the movie. Do they use subtitles in Japan?
 

Lantarion

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It *can* mean both Sauron and the One Ring, but literally it refers to Sauron; after all, he's the one everybody is fighting against, and he is the central 'bad-guy' in the book. Kind of a distant but very dangerous (and ever-present) threat.
In Finnish (wow, isn't this an international thread!) it is "Taru Sormusten Herrasta", which is directly translated as "The Tale of the Master/Lord of the Rings". But it's usually abbreviated to "Sormusten Herra", which means "Lord/Master of the Rings".
 

graen

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the ring as "lord"

In English, the word "Lord" generally refers to the ability to lead, command, or rule over others. This normally would indicate a person, or somebody with conscious thought.

However, since there are many examples where the ring is personified as attempting to control the wielder, or is acting on its own to return to Sauron, it could still qualify for Lordship. (I don't think that is the case here however).

I think Tolkien is referring to a person, however I am not convinced he is limiting the "Lord" to just Sauron. Rather one of the themes of the story is to determine who will be the final Lord. Granted Sauron was the original Lord, but having lost the ring, does he keep that title?

Had another power actually claimed the ring (Gandalf, Saruman, Galadrial, Elrond), would they have dethroned Sauron and become the new Lord of the Ring?
 

Gandalf714

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Sorry to disagree with you ReadWryt.

The Lord Of The Rings is Sauron, however he didn't make the Elven rings, nor did he distribute them. He made The One Ring to rule them, but the Elven rings were made by Celebrimor. When Sauron put on the One Ring, Celebrimor became aware of him and hid the Elven rings. They were never touched by Sauron.
 

Greenwood

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graen

I agree that had anyone with sufficient power who claimed the Ring and dethroned Sauron, that person would be the new Lord of The Ring, but barring that Sauron is the Lord of the Ring as depicted by Tolkien.
 
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Legolam

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Just wanted to say that this thread has made me think a whole lot about something I just took for granted ie the name of my favourite book. I never thought about it before.

I agree with whoever it was (sorry, you were on the other page and I'm too lazy to look back) that said Sauron was "Lord of the Ring" but the One Ring could be "Lord of the Rings" as Sauron never got a hold of the Elven rings.

Interesting (and international!) thread!

:cool:
 

Tar-Steve

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Maybe the title was a misprint. Maybe it was supposed to be "The Lore of the Rings". Maybe? ...MAYBE NOT!

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I'm kidding! You thought I was serious?
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I really just wanted to say what a cool thread this is (although I have nothing to add) and that it will add a point of interest to my next LotR reading.
 

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