How was the eye of Sauron able to speak through the Palantiri

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by Daniel Thomas, May 29, 2018.

  1. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas The Istari of Middle earth

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    I recently was doing some research on the palantiri. I know that there are eight palantiri in middle earth. six of them had a terrible doom. and of the other two only one is in middle earth (soon to be snuck on to the boat to the west by elrond.) and the other in arda so the valar could keep a watch on middle earth. So that means that sauron ever or could have had a palantiri. here are my sites but answer the question of how the eye of sauron could speak through the palantiri.

    1. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Palantíri
     
  2. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    There were originally seven palantíri in Middle-earth, gifts of the Eldar of Tol Eressëa to Amandil, last Lord of Andúnië, father of Elendil the Tall, “for the comfort of the Faithful of Númenor in their dark days, when the Elves might come no longer to that land under the shadow of Sauron.” Elendil spread the seven palantíri among the nine ships in his little fleet in the harbor of Rómenna in the last days Númenor, from whence he and his sons and followers were driven to Middle-earth by the tsunami that accompanied the Downfall of Númenor.

    Originally, the stones were set up this way:
    • In Arnor at
      • Elostirion (Tower Hills),
      • Annúminas by Lake Evendim, and
      • Amon Sûl, the Master Stone of Middle-earth;
    • In Gondor at
      • Orthanc (Angrenost),
      • Minas Anor (Minas Tirith),
      • Minas Ithil, and
      • Osgiliath, the Master-Stone of Gondor.

    The stones at Annúminas and Amon Sûl were taken to Fornost Erain, but subsequently lost at sea in the Icebay of Forochel. The stone at Osgiliath was lost during the Kin-Strife of Gondor. The stone at Minas Ithil was taken to Barad-dûr and lost in the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings. Unless its user exercised great will and determination, the stone of Minas Tirith would show only Denethor’s hands withering in flames. Aragorn and his successors used the stone of Orthanc to see what they wanted.

    The palantír of Elostirion was in accord only with the Master-Stone of all the palantíri in Tirion upon Túna in Eldamar, where either Fëanor or his kinsmen set it. When Elrond departed Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age, he removed that stone and returned it to Tol Eressëa, breaking forever direct communication between Valinor and Middle-earth. Gildor and the Elves whom Frodo, Sam, and Pippin encountered in the Woody End were returning from a pilgrimage to look into this stone, saving the Hobbits from the Nazgûl pursuing them when it retreated from the presence of the Noldor.

    Communication by means of the palantíri was mind-to-mind, but directed as if it were speech. What a viewer in one stone wanted to convey to a viewer using another was communicated as if they were conversing verbally, but the words were “spoken” and “heard” only in the mind. When Pippin looked into the Orthanc-stone and found Sauron looking back with the Ithil-stone, Sauron at first thought he was “speaking” with Saruman. When Pippin failed to respond, he quickly realized his error and capitalized upon it, supposing Saruman had forced the hobbit to look into the stone to torture him: part of the “spell” he placed upon Pippin – the recitation he repeated mechanically, “Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once,” the “spell” Gandalf gently broke – was a warning to Saruman not to pressure Pippin for more information.

    Likewise, when Aragorn looked into the stone and Sauron found him, Aragorn “spoke no word to him, and in the end … wrenched the Stone to [his] own will,” breaking communication and ending the “conversation.”

    Think of the palantíri as Fëanor’s version of Skype and satellite surveillance, and you will not be far off; except that when Tolkien wrote this story seventy years ago, neither Skype nor satellite surveillance were anything other than pipe dreams: Fantasy.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  3. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas The Istari of Middle earth

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    did you read my sites and watch the video i hope they came in handy

    P.s. there were eight stones

    not seven
     
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  4. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    There were only seven stones in Middle-earth, not eight. We don’t know how many stones there were altogether: at least eight, as you say, because there was the Master-Stone of Tirion. But only seven (7) in Middle-earth. That’s why Gandalf sings the rhyme of lore:
    Now, if there’s another palantír in Middle-earth, O scholar, tell us where it is.
     
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  5. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    Daniel Thomas, I’m going to apologize to you for my intemperate tone in the last post: I apologize.

    I’ll beg this excuse: there are only seven palantíri in Middle-earth. That is made explicit in many places.

    There are also, as you point out, at least eight palantíri in Arda. At least eight. We don’t know how many there are in all Arda: there might be several more in Aman, and possibly some others lost.

    But…

    Fëanor made them. Fëanor had seven sons. Fëanor plus seven sons equals eight people, and that rather suggests eight palantíri: one for communication with each son and his father.

    All the palantíri communicated with the others except the palantír of Elostirion, which communicated only with the Master-Stone at Avallónë (not Tirion: you could have called me on that error). Now, that palantír could have been defective, it could (like the Orthanc- and Ithil-stones) have been so exclusively used with the Master-Stone that it just automatically “dialed” the Master-Stone, – or it could have been the first stone Fëanor made.

    This is all speculation, without foundation; but maybe it’s worth considering.

    The palantír of Amon Sûl was the chief stone of Middle-earth, and could “listen in” to any other conversation in Middle-earth; that of Osgiliath was the chief stone of Gondor, and could “eavesdrop” on the three stones in Gondor (at least). If this pattern holds, then the Master-Stone at Avallónë should be able to view all the other stones and “eavesdrop” on the conversations of their users.

    This is suggestive. The Master-Stone of Avallónë sounds as if it could have been Fëanor’s. The palantír of Amon Sûl sounds as if it could have belonged to Maedhros, Fëanor’s eldest son and heir. The palantír of Osgiliath might have belonged to Curufin, who was closest to his father and his father’s favorite. Which begs the question: who has the defective stone that only allows communication with dad, or else who called his father so much and so often that the line jammed and would call no one else?

    Again, it’s only speculation. There’s no evidence one way or another.

    But you made me think about it. Again, apologies for biting. Still, seven in Middle-earth.


    Now this begs another question: Did Fëanor and his sons leave the palantíri behind when they left Arda in their haste to pursue Morgoth? Or were the stones recovered later, after the War of Wrath? Surely they were left behind, or the Fëanorians would have used them in their wars against Morgoth, as well as the Second and Third Kin-Slayings of the Elves.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  6. Squint-eyed Southerner

    Squint-eyed Southerner Skulking near Archet

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    Interesting ideas.

    Here's another "bite" for you, on "begging the question":

    [​IMG]

    :p:p:p
     
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  7. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    Ouch! You bit me!
     
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  8. Merroe

    Merroe Active Member

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    A little additional footnote, doubtlessly needless to most of you: let me (just for the reference) mention that there's a lot on the palantiri in the Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth (Part 4, Chapter 3).
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018