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Invent a SAINT [Tolkien Character]!

Eledhwen

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INVENT A SAINT

First, I have to disappoint you: your saint will not be recognised by any of the churches (though you never know....).

Second, there are some rules:-
  1. Your saint must be a Tolkien character - as well known or as obscure as you like
  2. Your saint must be patron of something; eg: Aüle could be patron saint of blacksmiths.
  3. Your saint must have a saints day, and a plausible reason for picking that day.
  4. A potted biography of why they are the patron saint of - whatever - would also be good.
  5. er.... that's it.

I won't go first, as I've set enough prerequisites without setting a format too. So it's your turn.....
 

Úlairi

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I'm sorry but I just find the equation of fictional characters to Saints is profoundly insensitive to anyone here that may hold religious beliefs, including myself. I don't care if it's "just a bit of fun" or not.

As I recall there is a ban on this forum about anything of a religious nature. Could this thread please be removed or locked by the moderation of this forum?

It is extremely hypocritical that my quasi-political threads are closed down and yet threads like these are given free reign.

Úlairi.
 

HLGStrider

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Well, knowing that at least one person involved in naming saints previously (even if it was a long time ago as this is a very old resurrected thread) is a devout Catholic and therefore would have a vested interest in Saints not being villified/defiled/belittled, I would ask you first to consider whether it is possible you are taking Eld's intent in the wrong light.

While this is a little lighter hearted, I don't see this as very different from a discussion on whether or not Frodo or Gandalf could be seen as a Christ figure within the context of the story, and religion is not banned in the context of book discussion (ie, how did religion influence Tolkien's writing or how Tolkien's writing influenced your own religious walk) so it isn't hypocritical.

As a believer (in Christ) myself, I don't see it as a bad thing when we compare Christ to Gandalf even if Gandalf is fictional, so I disagree with you that this is "profoundly insensitive" to followers of the faith.

If you want to start a discussion that somehow relates Tolkien to politics in some relevent way (and I don't mean by simply starting the thread with an alegory where Iraq is Mt. Doom or Obama is Frodo but rather a "Do you think you could describe the Shire as an ideal free market society" or "would Rohan have benefited from the insertion of affirmative action laws?"), then I think we could accept that in the right spirit. We've had some interesting discussions about Middle Earth and economic systems before.
 

Eledhwen

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I am sorry if my thread offended you, Úlairi. I too am a practicing Christian; and respect the traditions of others (my husband's family are Orthodox). However, the term 'saint' is not exclusive to Christianity, being derived from the Latin 'sanctus' meaning 'holy' or 'set apart for a purpose'. Other religions use different words to match this definition (eg: Hindu 'sri' or 'srila', Islamic 'sufi', Sikh 'sant' which can be applied to the living).

I had visited this thread to congratulate Voronwen on a superb Tolkien-saint, Amandil of Andúnië, who gave his life to intercede for Numenor before the Valar.

Here's a news titbit for those interested in real saints!:cool:
 

Úlairi

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Well, knowing that at least one person involved in naming saints previously (even if it was a long time ago as this is a very old resurrected thread) is a devout Catholic and therefore would have a vested interest in Saints not being villified/defiled/belittled, I would ask you first to consider whether it is possible you are taking Eld's intent in the wrong light.
I am not accusing anyone of ill intention as to do so would require proof. What I am quite upset about is the fact that this thread, whilst being of a light nature, is nonetheless sanctifying fictional characters which is indeed inadvertently impugning the sacred title and nature of those who have been considered worthy of canonisation. This comparison adulterates the essence of this sanctity and defiles it. I will not stand idly by whilst I watch this go on and say nothing whatsoever, regardless if it is simply: "just a bit of fun". I can quite strongly assure you that this is not another Úlairi moment of "argument for argument's sake" but that it is something that I feel must unequivocally be challenged.

While this is a little lighter hearted, I don't see this as very different from a discussion on whether or not Frodo or Gandalf could be seen as a Christ figure within the context of the story, and religion is not banned in the context of book discussion (ie, how did religion influence Tolkien's writing or how Tolkien's writing influenced your own religious walk) so it isn't hypocritical.
I respectfully disagree with this as analogy is simply comparing one with another without equation of the two. Frodo is like Christ. He is not Christ. Elrond may have "divine" aspects to his nature, but he is not divine. By attaching the word saint to a fictional character you are assimilating that character within the sanctity that the word embodies and connotes. This thread does not ask for a comparison but simply for a person to invent a Saint. To make one up from thin air. If this were a thread discussing the holiness of certain characters of Middle-earth I would not take issue with it. What inherently offends me is that this thread simply puts an equals sign between that holiness and the character which violates the sacred nature of the institution of canonisation. The bow that you have drawn in connecting the two dots is so tenuous that the bow cannot be drawn in the first place. There is no discussion in relation to what you have stated above and even if there were, just because a character may have such intrinsic aspects they are, nor will they ever be, Saints. You cannot bypass any religious insensitivity just because the greater theme to this thread is focussed primarily upon fictional characters and not the institution of canonisation.

As a believer (in Christ) myself, I don't see it as a bad thing when we compare Christ to Gandalf even if Gandalf is fictional, so I disagree with you that this is "profoundly insensitive" to followers of the faith.
That is because I am going to make the assumption that you are Protestant, and not Catholic and thus cannot understand the sanctity of such a religious institution. This is not an offensive remark, it is simply just that you do not place the same value in sainthood as I do. Your disagreement is thus unfounded as it is simply a difference in opinion between a Catholic and a Protestant that has remained unresolved for centuries. You are thus imposing your own system of beliefs upon your decision to let this thread remain active. It is irrelevant that I am doing the same thing as I am not in a position to moderate this forum. To do so is also against the code which has been instated in this forum.

If you want to start a discussion that somehow relates Tolkien to politics in some relevent way (and I don't mean by simply starting the thread with an alegory where Iraq is Mt. Doom or Obama is Frodo but rather a "Do you think you could describe the Shire as an ideal free market society" or "would Rohan have benefited from the insertion of affirmative action laws?"), then I think we could accept that in the right spirit. We've had some interesting discussions about Middle Earth and economic systems before.
Threads such as these are not the same as a religious system of beliefs. If this thread was about equating characters to Mohammed or invocation of the holy name of God (in the Jewish faith) then this forum, if notified to the proper authorities in certain countries could be censored from that particular country.

If I began a thread in this forum about the downfall of Númenor being comparable to that of 9/11 and listed some of the characters as among the dead the thread would be closed down and deleted before I'd finished blinking. If it were a thread considering the sexual orientation of the characters of Middle-earth it would likely be too sensitive a topic. If it is not I will start such a thread, no questions asked. We would not post a thread concerning 9/11 because we respect the dignity and sanctity of human life. I would hope that the Saints would be accorded the same dignity and respect of that sanctity.

Just because I can make such a connection is does not mean that I should and just because some of us here may not be religious and hold the same beliefs it does not mean that such a thread should be allowed to stand on its own two feet. If I started a 9/11 thread a psychopath who doesn't observe any sanctity in human life may find no problems with it whatsoever. Just because he may hold a contrary opinion, does it the mean that such a thread should stand?

I don't see any shade of grey here Elgee, it's all black and white and I resent the fact that anyone, just because they disagree with me will impose their own personal beliefs in the application of the rules of this forum, especially when they are the ones in the position to do so. It would just be another double-standard to add to the long list. Making exceptions for one thing and not another. Who are you to determine what is sacred about one institution or quality and its sensitivity and not another? Yes, that it profoundly hypocritical.

I am sorry if my thread offended you, Úlairi. I too am a practicing Christian; and respect the traditions of others (my husband's family are Orthodox). However, the term 'saint' is not exclusive to Christianity, being derived from the Latin 'sanctus' meaning 'holy' or 'set apart for a purpose'.
I am a traditional Catholic and attend the Tridentine Rite (Latin Mass) and know where the word saint derives from Eledwhen. It is irrelevant how the word is used in other religions, what is relevant is what religion this thread is in relation to (read the words "patron saint" in the first post). If you respect the traditions of others then I ask you to refrain from the continuation of this thread.

Other religions use different words to match this definition (eg: Hindu 'sri' or 'srila', Islamic 'sufi', Sikh 'sant' which can be applied to the living).
Well then, equate the characters to the beliefs of those religions and test the waters a little to see if you'll offend others that hold those beliefs. Perhaps you can look for similar linguistic constructs to the Jewish Tetragrammaton or how the Istari were similar to Mohammed in reinstituting the monotheistic worship of God or Allah.

Úlairi.
 

Voronwen

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I had visited this thread to congratulate Voronwen on a superb Tolkien-saint, Amandil of Andúnië, who gave his life to intercede for Numenor before the Valar.
Thank you, Eledhwen :) Likewise, this thread was a very creative idea!

Of course now i feel miserable for having brought back to life a thread that was potentially so offensive. :eek: I too am a believer in Christ. I originally took the meaning of this thread to be more along the lines of 'If anyone were to be canonized as a saint within the context of Tolkien's world, who would it be, and why?' Forgive me but i thought it was a great idea for an exercise in creative character interpretation. If i had known that a thread that was designed to be an exercise in creative thought regarding Tolkien's characters would be so offensive to some, i never would have done so. My apologies to Úlairi and anyone else who has been offended by my bringing up this thread.
 

Eledhwen

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Again, the word 'patron' does not have a Catholic copyright; but as it's been brought up, it is worth mentioning that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote, "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." (Letters) This gives us to understand that The Lord of the Rings is not a Christian allegory (as Tolkien firmly attested) but rather an invented myth that reflected Christian and Catholic truths.

I can't find a Tolkien word that equates to Saint for the theocracy of Middle-earth; and I haven't the skill to invent one in Elvish etc. Perhaps we can agree to just drop Saint and just say "Patron of" (as in caring about and in authority over) if people really are offended?

:eek:

I was wondering what Frodo could be patron (dare I say the S word) of. Practically everything on his long journey is out. All the useful, everyday stuff that sainthood covers was done by Sam. But Frodo did one thing really well - he celebrated his and Bilbo's birthdays, dare I say 'religiously':p even when people questioned his grip on reality because of it. After his trip, he suffered afresh the wounds he received on the anniversary of each.

I therefore declare Frodo to be the Middle-earth patron saint of birthdays and anniversaries, officially to be celebrated on September 22nd.
 

Firawyn

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I think this is a good thread. :)


St. Samwise

Patron Saint Gardens

His day is commemorated in January 15,the day that Samwise and the rest of the Fellowship of the Ring entered the realm of Lórien. Galadriel changed the name of the land from the original Lórinand to Lórien, partly in memory of the garden of Lórien she had seen in Valinor in her youth, and part partly because of the golden mallorn trees she brought with her to grow in the woods there. Galadriel gave Samwise some dirt from her realm that he took with him back to the Shire after the destruction of the Ring.



(I think all that info is correct?)
 

Ithrynluin

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Just an idea

If these entries are agreed upon by others, we could even add them to the public calendar and have them appear at the bottom of the main page as special days?
 

Voronwen

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Re: Just an idea

If these entries are agreed upon by others, we could even add them to the public calendar and have them appear at the bottom of the main page as special days?
That's a wonderful idea! :)

Now i'm off to go think of more Numenorean sai--- *ahem* patrons (yes, i am very ethnocentrically biased about my Numenor! :eek::p).
 

Úlairi

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I'm not sure if I should even bother replying because supposedly Ulari has left the forum again, but I think he said some unfair things in the heat of his indignation which should be addressed.
No, I haven't left yet. But this shall be my last post for what should be a significantly long time until I see that this forum has finally returned to a place where I can feel comfortable posting without constantly meeting opposition in relation to virtually anything that I say, as if my opinion were so worthless I should simply just shut up. I would like to say farewell to Illuin, Alcuin, chrysophalax and Aulë, the four people on this board who made being here the last few months tolerable.

And wouldn't I be imposing YOUR belief systems upon the forum if I caused it to be closed. As I said, the intent of this thread was obviously not to be offensive, it has not gone down a road I consider to be offensive, and other devout Catholics in the past have participated in it without being offended, therefore, I feel fairly safe in assuming you are the only one on the forum who is offended by this and I don't feel like closing a thread other people apparently were enjoying because of one person who is taking the thread completely out of context. After all, this forum already violates some orthodox codes as it is by having non-related men and women discussing things with each other. You simply can't please everyone.
Well, perhaps instead of selectively choosing which parts of my repsonses to rebut Elgee perhaps you could look at the statements made in their contextual entirety.

It is irrelevant that I am doing the same thing as I am not in a position to moderate this forum. To do so is also against the code which has been instated in this forum.
How can all of you be so blind as to the fact that it is completely unimportant and insignificant whether or not this thread intended to offend, it has offended. You expecting an outcry from Catholics around the globe on this board about this thread before you shut it down?!

"Except it be for this one voice only that I cried, standing among them, Concerning the resurrection of the dead am I judged this day by you." - Acts 24:21.

Who are you to assume the powers of the Holy See and the Supreme Pontiff in determination of what Saints are? Are you now going to identify the requisite miracles of each character?

"So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven." - Matthew 16:18-9.

The sacrosanctity of the institution of sainthood is a power reserved solely for the Catholic Church as appointed to Peter by Christ. To even in a jocular or jovial nature assume such power is unrepentant blasphemy and I must then be that "one voice" being judged by you upon the resurrection of the dead as without this voice, this travesty would be allowed to continue unchecked. I am ashamed to even consider myself a member of this forum which is the sole reason why I now leave it. It is irrelevant if I am the only one that believes this, it pales in significance as to whether it is a "good", "fun" or "light-hearted" thread as it is without regard to any religious belief and is an unequiovocal debasement of my faith.

It could also be censored in many countries for any number of reasons already, and may very well already be for all I know. I don't see why some countries having less freedom of speech is a reason to edit out our pursuits.
So, you consider that your freedom of speech should ultimately trump freedom of religious practice when it so flagrantly impinges upon it? You don't consider a thread that is offensive should be shut down because it is being enjoyed by others? God help us now that we live in a world that promotes religious tolerance whilst subversively undermining it. Has it now come down to a simple balancing act where majority doesn't just rule, but silences the minority completely? I have not asked for much, just that one thread that infringes upon a sacred institution of Catholicism be shut down. I did not ask anyone to be banned or one of the fora to be removed. Just because I am one voice crying in the wilderness does it therefore entail that what I represent and stand for is completely null and void? I cannot believe how indescribably biased the moderation of this forum is to the point that you close down a perfectly good thread where arbitrary discussion was occurring. Barley's original thread is about *removed* coffee now and that has still remained! Can someone please explain this to me, as I don't seem to have the slightest clue what's going on around here anymore?! If I could issue a vote of no confidence in some of the moderation of this forum I would proudly raise my hand without hindrance.

You don't feel as though a thread that is offensive because it is being enjoyed by others I think assuming that people are going to now declare Elrond to be on par with St. Catherine or Christopher is alarmist.
It is not the underlying intention that infuriates me, just the mere suggestive nature of making such an equation I feel spits in the faces of the Saints and whether I'm one voice or one thousand, what is being perpetrated in this thread should be swiftly cut down and cast into the fire.

The 9-11 thing is hard because it is simply so fresh and people did know people who died in it personally, possibly even people on this forum. If we wanted to invoke Pearl Harbor you might get a little more traction. I'm not saying this discussion couldn't be had between reasonable people, just that it would have to be handled with a sort of sensitivity that is getting rarer and rarer these days.
And again in a profound double-standard you are making another exception to the rule. It must be nice to be judge, jury and executioner. Why shouldn't this thread also be handled with sensitivity. It has enraged me but because I have this stellar reputation as being the resident TTF a$$hole whatever I say has no significant bearing whatsoever as no one could give a rat sh*t about what I have to say in the first place, whether or not it actually be true. You're sure as hell right that this "sensitivity" is getting rarer and rarer these days - least you've finally got one thing right.

Well, even if he didn't like it, he may have given us some interesting thread ideas, none that I'm qualified to start, however.
Interesting thread ideas?

I hereby remove myself from TTF as long as travesties such as this are allowed to stand. I know the majority here couldn't care less, so it is liklely that anything that I may have said in the past will be discredited, censored and ultimately eradicated from the memory of this place. I am ecstatic that I can make such comments and then stand aside and watch the inherent weakness of human nature devour all that was once good about this place.

Ithryn,

Without instigating a personal attack on you as I said I would not do so, I will personally attack your action of calling for a saints calendar one of the singular most despicable and underhanded words ever to be posted on this forum and that I cannot believe that the only thread you choose to participate in where I have posted since our little spat is one where you have the support you need to promote such an incredibly depreciative bastardization of a religious institution held close to the hearts of millions worldwide.

I now leave this forum with these final parting words from Holy Scripture.

"He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail." - 1 Samuel 2:9.

And Elgee, considering that you are a Christian who has respect for the saints yet holds within her hands to judge what thread may or may not be offensive or religiously bastardizes, perhaps you should take note of the following passage from Holy Scripture:

"How dare one of your members take up a complaint against another in the lawcourts of the unjust instead of before the saints? As you know, it is the saints who are to 'judge the world'; and if the world is to be judged by you, how can you be unfit to judge trifling cases?" - 1 Corinthians 6: 1-2.

"'Assemble my faithful before me
who sealed my covenant by sacrifice!"
Let the heavens proclaim his righteousness
when God himself is judge!" - Psalms 50: 5-6.

You have neither the power nor prerogative to declare what are Saints, only God alone through the Ministry of his Church has such power.

If you are going to proclaim the Saints then perhaps you should establish the First Church of Middle-earth without any affiliation to the Catholic faith whatsoever. Until then I shall no longer continue to be a member of this board.

EDIT: And if you had the slightest ounce of decency this post should not be destroyed.

Kyrie eleison,
Kyrie eleison,
Kyrie eleison,
Christe Eleison,
Christe Eleison,
Christe Eleison,
Kyrie eleison,
Kyrie eleison,
Kyrie eleison.


Úlairi.
 

Illuin

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Treebeard




Aimo Aldalómë - Saint of Tree-Shadow (Fangorn)


Aimo Aldalómë (Treebeard) led the Onyato (Ents) to war against Saruman who threatened the Trees of Fangorn Forest.


Legend says that Meriadoc Brandybuck and Peregrin Took first established the festival known as Aldalómë Merendë (Fangorn Festival). The Festival begins on the Last Day of Nénimë (February) and lasts for three days ending in late afternoon on the Second Day of Súlimë (March). The festival is a symbolic commemoration of The Entmoot and is celebrated in Party Field; which is renamed Derndingle for the three day holiday.

In the center of Party Field, an enormous white pavilion is erected that is large enough to house the Mallorn Tree which now stands in place of the old Party Tree, along with two extremely long poles extending from ground to ceiling. Thus, from the outside, the pavilion symbolizes the three tall silver birches that grew at the center of Derndingle. In the custom of Wellinghall (Treebeard's Home), light is provided by vessels filled with glowing liquid - golden and green.

The festival officially commences with the sounding of "the horns of Fangorn" calling a formal gathering. Hobbits who have "come of age" within that year are given a cup of Ent Draught (only once in their lifetime). Everyone else joins in an opening toast with faux Ent Draught generously provided by the Green Dragon :D.

Soon thereafter, about noon on the first day; all of the children born within that year are documented in a special book; as "a new line shall be put in the old lists". For every new child, a tree sapling is planted bearing the child's name. This ritual is a symbolic gesture of hope; that one day young Ent saplings will once again enter into the world; and respectively, "a new line shall be put in the old lists". It also continues the replenishing of the forests in honor of Old Aimo Aldalómë.

The second day is casual and festive; and is the main "feast day". This day is dedicated to food, song, and new friends. The tradition on this day is to sing the Elvish song that spoke of the Onyavessë (Entwives); with the males and females trading verses in turn:

ENT: When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough;
When light is on the wild-wood stream, and wind is on the brow;
When stride is long, and breath is deep, and keen the mountain-air,
Come back to me! Come back to me, and say my land is fair!

ENTWIFE : When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade;
When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid;
When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I’ll linger here, and will not come, because my land is fair.

The high point of the festival is on the afternoon of the third day (Second Day of Súlimë); when there is the time-honored "long period of silence" just before all of the Hobbits passionately march around the perimeter of the field shouting:

"To Isengard with doom we come!
With doom we come, with doom we come!
To Isengard!
To Isengard!"

The festival comes to a close with a traditional Hobbit mantra; a musical oath vowing to always preserve and cherish the trees of the forest. The celebration officially ends with a universal toast honoring Treebeard; and everyone shouting in one accord: "Do not be hasty!!!"



PS - I also like Ithy's Calendar idea.

PS2 - If anyone was wondering; yes I was up really late grading papers
again :rolleyes:.
 

YayGollum

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Ulairi person, I am curious ---> Are you aware of your reputation? Most probably, I'd believe. Are you also aware of how wary these people are of you, due to your reputation? I am an evil as well as self-centered sort, so very little actually gets to me. I am ofttimes surprised at how overly sensitive people can be. And it's usually them being overly sensitive about people like you, the types that I get lots of entertainment from.

I wouldn't know anyone's reasoning behind the crazy things that they post, and I don't particularly care. I strongly suspect (although, I can never be certain, of course) that most of the time that humans are offended by you, your goal is not to make people cry. You're just typing the way that you're honestly thinking. Yay for variety of personalities! They just aren't thick-skinned enough. I'd advise them to at least come ready for barbs or stay out of the way, while I raise a perplexed eyebrow at their inability to remain untouched. I also strongly suspect (although, I am equally uncertain) that this Eledhwen person (another favorite of mine, for different reasons) wasn't intending to make people cry.

Looks as if that matters not. You were offended, anyways (although, your problem is that nobody can be sure of that, via your reputation), but you have large problems with getting in trouble for people being offended by you. Quit that, yo. You can't accept any differences of opinion? They're all crazy? Nothing to learn? There are only the crazy, offensive, or those that would agree with you? Argh.

Yes, I can understand why plenty of people might become offended by the idea of this thread, but I would call all of those people crazy, and not just because I disagree with them. It's merely an exercise. If people were trying to turn some stinking elfish character into a saint in real life, offense would be a bit more warranted, but I would still expect more amusement and disbelief than annoyance. How horrible am I for all of the crazy hypothetical situations I've discussed about religion? Fairly achingly, I figure, if you expected this idea to ignite a fire.

Also, don't expect threads to be deleted if one person is offended where it seems obvious (although, how can we be certain? I shall have my eye on the Eledhwen person, so tricksy!) that no offense was meant, and plenty of others are having fun with it. Righteous indignation and such emotions? Like most emotions, those types are silly. Live as well as allow to live. Call people crazy. If a thread has too many barbs for you, though, stay out of the way.
 

Illuin

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Maybe the mods (Ithy, Strider, or Yay) can split this thread into two, and keep the "make-believe" saints separated from the theological discussion. I wouldn't mind putting my two cents in, but isn't that what the Project Evil room was created for? With Ithy's calendar suggestion, and Eledhwen's overall concept here, I think this thread has a lot of potential for creativity and good times. It's kind of like a mini-RPG that unfortunately is getting lost in the "real life" argument, that in my eyes (being a dedicated Christian myself) makes little sense. They are "make-believe" saints for a "make-believe" world; what's the problem? Úlairi; please don't take this the wrong way, but if J.R.R. Tolkien (a dedicated Catholic himself) thought the way you do, his work would have never been written; as he would have considered his ideas (Eru, The Valar, immortal Elves, etc.) blasphemous and an abomination. Come on; it's just fantasy; lighten up a little; or as the Bible says:

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, you strain out the gnat, but swallow the camel!
I believe you're making way too big a deal out of this. Just relax a little bit here. "Loving Thy Neighbor" (Mark 12:31) is far more important than quibbling over religious technicalities and differences. That's what the Pharisees did; remember? And why do you have to leave the forum? Half of your posts are incredible, and I always look forward to them. But it seems that when you are bored, or in a cranky mood, you unload on people in here. Just have a little patience and wait to post your "positive half" :D. Those are high quality posts that I believe many in this forum really enjoy; as I do.

PS - Dang! I really thought everyone would enjoy my little three day shindig for old Treebeard :p.
 

HLGStrider

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I never thought Yay would be the one to calm my nerves today . . .but that helped a lot Yay. I think you will notice the editing I'm about to do. I decided to do it thinking about this thread this morning while making my daughter her breakfast. I figured if anything was distracting me enough that I couldn't enjoy Coryn's newfound love of peanut butter, it really shouldn't be in my life, and after all, I said all I wanted to in the first original post, the rest is just replying to Ulari disagreeing with me and there isn't really anything good coming out of that, and so I'm deleting all posts of MINE in this thread except for the original one, which I stick to, that I don't see this thread as being either intentionally offensive or encroaching on anyones "religious freedom," so it isn't worthy of deletion.

Like I've said before, you can't please everyone and the man with two wives who let the old one pull out his dark hairs because they made him look young and the young one pull out his gray hairs because they made him look old only ended up bald.
 

Úlairi

Crying in the Wilderness
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Down the rabbit hole...
LOL, it got archived, just the typical response from your friendly neighbourhood moderator.

Would it be reasonable to assume that I will be issued with a notice of infraction for spamming for such a post?

Cheers,

Úlairi.
 

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