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Mannish Traditions

Elthir

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My short-nick is Ando "gate", also the name of tengwa number 5.

And Galin has been banned not for rambling, but for repetitive rambling -- in my subjective opinion at least; or in other words, as I see things, or according to my measure . . . that is to say, he rambled over and over, repeating himself needlessly about something in a given time frame that I considered unacceptable. In my view of course.

Or as I judge the matter.
 

Elthir

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Just to be clear, Galin's earlier question is with respect to dealing with the scenario from an internal perspective.

And to add to Galadriel's statement after she rejects the One, one could argue that she means to include herself when she explains: "Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten"

I [Ando] read one work in Mythlore [volume 25 number 3] which argued that this is actually the "stronger" statement of the two. I'm not sure I agree with that: does Galadriel necessarily "have to" include herself in this (what I read as a) fairly sweeping statement about departing West?
In the former quote [from Galin's earlier post], she is talking about herself at least.

Also, with respect to Galadriel's lament and so on . . .

. . . in another late work, Of Dwarves and Men, Tolkien comments that Galadriel's Farewell was addressed direct to Frodo, " . . . and was an extempore outpouring in free rhythmic style, reflecting the overwhelming increase in her regret and longing, and her personal despair after she had survived the terrible temptation. [...] In the event it proved that it was Galadriel's abnegation of pride and trust in her own powers, and her absolute refusal of any unlawful enhancement of them, that provided the ship to bear her back to her home."

And in yet another late work, The Shibboleth of Feanor: "Her Lament — spoken before she knew of the pardon (and indeed honour) that the Valar gave her — harks back to the days of her youth in Valinor and to the darkness of the years of Exile while the Blessed Realm was closed to all the Noldor in Middle- earth"

These noted, both were not published by Tolkien himself, and thus in my opinion, could arguably be discarded in any quest to iron out this "wrinkle" (again, if indeed others find it a wrinkle) from an internal point of view.
 
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Elthir

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Miguel, you're correct that there were Noldorin Elves who remained in Middle-earth after the First Age.

For myself, when Galadriel says she will diminish and pass Over Sea . . . at first I imagined that somehow she knew she'd been pardoned
in this moment (rejecting the One), perhaps something like the message Cirdan received (according to a very late text on Cirdan/Ciryatan) . . .
but that didn't/doesn't square too well with RGEO in my opinion, as both Galadriel's songs come after this statement.

At the moment I simply imagine that Artanis Nerwende Galadriel says she'll pass into the West, but adds to herself (thinking) if she is finally allowed. In other words, this notable moment is not the time to reference/mention/speak about her ban to Frodo or Sam. . .

. . . "Sam" . . . who's real (short form) Westron name was Ban!


I realize this is just my attempt at internal "squaring" (if anyone has other ideas about this, please share), but in any case, this is Frodo's story to write, and at least generally speaking, Frodo arguably has a limited perspective compared to Tolkien-as-translator, who explains Galadriel's ban very clearly enough in RGEO (published by the Master himself), giving an explanation that ties directly into already published text, to boot.

Galin: "The Revenant?"

Ando: "Still banned"

Galin: "But surely . . . redemption is possible."
 
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Alcuin

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Miguel, there were a fair number of Noldor in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age, but Galadriel was the last Noldorin descendent of the House of Finwë, the royal house. Gil-galad was the last of that house who claimed to be King of the Noldor. Notice that there were still Elven kings in Middle-earth, Thranduil for instance. And Celebrían and her children with Elrond were also descendants of Finwë, but they were not Noldor: they were Sindar, because Celebrían’s father Celeborn was Sindar.

Moreover, Galadriel was the only surviving Noldo who was considered by the Ainur to be a “leader” in the Rebellion of the Noldor, whatever her motives might be. The Road Goes Ever On, which Tolkien published in his own lifetime to make it “canon”, says that

After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.
In Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien reports a letter of his father’s from 1967 in which he wrote,

The [Noldorin] Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a … prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a … sojourn in Eressëa …, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. …
It is this telling of the story of Galadriel that informs The Lord of the Rings, and that in the final year or two of his life Tolkien thought to undo and rewrite. Galin (or “Ando” if he insists) and I prefer the telling published in Tolkien’s lifetime: it is more poignant, more beautiful, and far sadder than Tolkien’s attempts to retell the tale with a “pristine” Galadriel. Galadriel in LotR is a fallen individual, strong but vulnerable, wisened by long experience and pain and regret. In Letters, Tolkien points out that Galadriel is old, older by far than Shelob for instance, the example he cites. By the time she meets Frodo, she knows the days of the power of Nenya, the Ring of Adamant that she bears, are drawing to a close, and that she must “dwindle …, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.” When she rejects the Ruling Ring, she has made her choice: whether she is permitted to take ship and go voluntarily or not, she knows her spirit, her fëa, will go into the West when her body dies, and that she will surely in Middle-earth through mischance, mistake, or malice under the Dominion of Men and without the powers she had at her disposal until then.

“I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.”
Her willingness to reject the Ring when freely offered, to abnegate ambition and renounce power, were her salvation: for she thought Gandalf was dead indeed and gone forever from Middle-earth: when he returned, he learned of her decision and took her home with him. How bitter for Saruman!
 

Miguel

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there were a fair number of Noldor in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age
Si, but i was referring to the remaining exiles at the end of 1st age not the 3rd.

Por cierto, does anyone piensa that i'm subtlly racist towards you or something like that?. I have a feeling some are confundidos around here and make assumptions based on their own imagination/malice, looking at things through "his" eyes. I have limited knowledge in history but have been learning more and more recently. I was catholic before, i think, i went to church and all that but then i stopped. I'm not religious, i don't care about any of that. I like John's books, punto. Hablame claro.
 
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Alcuin

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Si, but i was referring to the remaining exiles at the end of 1st age not the 3rd.
Gil-galad was born in Middle-earth after his father journeyed from Eldamar in the Rebellion of the Noldor, whether his father was Fingon or Orodreth, so no ban against his sailing into the West was ever set. Galadriel, however, was one of the leaders of the Noldor and also one of the leaders of their Rebellion: she did face a ban on her return; or at least, she did in Tolkien’s mind as late as 1967.

The only Noldorin descendants of Finwë at the end of the First Age were Galadriel; Gil-galad, who inherited the crown of the Noldor and was their last king in Middle-earth; Maglor son of Fëanor, who seems to have lost his mind after casting his purloined Silmaril into the sea and spent the rest of his life wandering the coasts and singing laments; and Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Fëanor, who with Galadriel founded Eregion, with Sauron forged the Nine and Seven Rings of Power, and alone forged the Three Rings.

That means four descendants of Finwë were still alive in Middle-earth when the Second Age began. Celebrimbor died in Second Age 1697 defending the House of the Mírdain in Ost-in-Edhil during its invasion by Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron. Maglor died: we are not told when, where, or how, but if he lived through the Second Age, and if he remained wandering the coastlands, then the tsunami that swept the western shores of Middle-earth in the Downfall of Númenor probably took him; but however long he lived, it seems Maglor suffered some Elvish version of insanity, apparently from overwhelming regret. Gil-galad died along with Elendil in Second Age 3441 in personal combat against Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin in the War of the Last Alliance. That leaves only Galadriel at the beginning of the Third Age.

There were a great many other Noldor at the end of the First Age, but it seems most of them passed over the Sea into the West, ending their self-imposed exile. Those that remained settled mostly in Lindon as the Second Age began: Lindon was all the mainland that remained of Beleriand, though the island of Himling, formerly Maedhros’ fortress of Himring, seems large enough to have been populated, were any Elves so inclined. Early in the Second Age, Galadriel and Celebrimbor set out east across Eriador and settled Eregion, Hollin, a land they could rule without reference to Gil-galad: Ruling her own realm was one of Galadriel’s desires, and one of the driving reasons behind her eagerness to leave Eldamar in the first place: hence her struggle to refuse Frodo’s offer of the One Ring despite thousands of years of reflection upon such a possibility. When Sauron arrived in disguise as Annatar, Giver of Gifts, Galadriel spoke against him, but Celebrimbor and the Mírdain turned against her, and she had to leave Eregion. She passed through Khazad-dûm to Lothlórien on the east side of the Misty Mountains where Amroth ruled. (Amroth may or may not have been her son.)

During the War of the Elves and Sauron, Gil-galad sent Elrond with some troops to help the Noldor of Eregion, but to no avail: Sauron swept away all resistance, and Elrond and the survivors with him found themselves cut off from escape to Lindon, so he led those survivors to a valley in the northwestern Misty Mountains where he founded Imladris, Rivendell. Rivendell, then, was populated by Noldor of Eregion who survived the attack, Noldor of Lindon who accompanied Elrond, and Sindar of Lindon who accompanied Elrond. It is likely the Elven smiths who reforged Narsil for Aragorn in The Fellowship of the Ring were surviving Noldor of Eregion.

Finally, there were “Wandering Companies.” Gildor was leading one of these when he and his companions met Frodo, Sam, and Merry. Their conversation indicates that they had homes,

“This is poor fare, … for we are lodging in the greenwood far from our halls. If ever you are our guests at home, we will treat you better.”
but we never learn where their halls were located. Gildor says that “some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.” Since these are Noldor – The Road Goes Ever On indicates they were returning from a pilgrimage to the Tower Hills, where they looked into the Palantír of Elendil to see a vision of Eldamar and perhaps of Taniquetil – their “kinsfolk” are also Noldor. Whether the Wandering Companies were nomadic or pilgrims is not clear, since they themselves indicate to Frodo they have more permanent homes.

So at the end of the Third Age, the Noldor reside in Lindon, Rivendell, and make up some or all of the Wandering Companies. In Letter 347 written late in his life, Tolkien observed,

It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob[ably] more people (Men) that knew Q[uenya], or spoke S[indarin], than there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and its fiefs must have been much greater than that of Lindon, Rivendell, and Lórien.
This would include not only the Noldor, but also the Sindar. Moreover, the story of Pengoloð the Sage indicates that while his father was a Noldo, his mother was a Sinda: a mixed population of Noldor and Sindar arose in Beleriand. If Minas Tirith could of itself raise an army of about six thousand men, then the population of the city was not likely more than sixty thousand at a maximum, or perhaps twenty-four thousand at a minimum: that might give you a rough idea of the number of Noldor and Sindar remaining in Middle-earth, if there were more Men in Minas Tirith than Eldar anywhere in Middle-earth. (Stephen Wigmore has a good essay on this.)

Por cierto...
Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.
 

Elthir

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It is this telling of the story of Galadriel that informs The Lord of the Rings, and that in the final year or two of his life Tolkien thought to undo and rewrite. Galin (or “Ando” if he insists) and I prefer the telling published in Tolkien’s lifetime: it is more poignant, more beautiful, and far sadder than Tolkien’s attempts to retell the tale with a “pristine” Galadriel.
Galin and Ando agree ;)

And we really don't understand why Tolkien wrote his late adumbrated tale. I [Galin] once wrangled with someone over at Minas Tirith forums who claimed that the impetus behind this revision was JRRT's faith, and that that should thus take precedence over Tolkien-published texts. Needless to say I disagreed with the "canon distinction" there, and find the penitent Galadriel no less Catholic/Christian in any case . . . plus, Tolkien had already spoken to the Virgin Mary comparison in nearly the same breath as calling her a penitent (in one of his letters).

And some seemingly take the late adumbrated text as a conscious decision to contradict already published text. I do not, nor do I see (as yet) any evidence for this. For all we know, Tolkien suddenly glanced at a copy of RGEO in his bookcase, said "Oh yeah . . . oops!" and maybe that's why this unstained version never got beyond its "adumbrated state."

Perhaps Lord Halsbury had something to do with this?

When she rejects the Ruling Ring, she has made her choice: whether she is permitted to take ship and go voluntarily or not, she knows her spirit, her fëa, will go into the West when her body dies, and that she will surely in Middle-earth through mischance, mistake, or malice under the Dominion of Men and without the powers she had at her disposal until then.

Hmm. Is this your answer to the question from the Ando/Galin account? If so, I admit I/we never considered it (or did I/we, and forgot?) . . . but then there is the question of bodily fading versus bodily death; or, with bodily death, Mandos versus bodily return in the West . . . but that said, if one is talking about what Galadriel herself believed, that's a different animal in any event . . . and with respect to the second consideration, one could point to Finrod, bodily back in Aman at some point. And if not (if it's not intended as your interpretation of Galadriel's statement after her rejection of the One), then never mind what I (possibly we), just wrote.

Incidentally, and not that it matters with respect to your general point regarding the Sindar and Noldor in Beleriand, but according to late text published in Vinyar Tengwar, Pengoloð is a Noldo from Aman, and thus wouldn't have a Sindarin mother.


I can make that dog Galin track down the relevant VT description if you like 🐾

Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.

I might steal this at some point and act like I didn't (steal it) :)
 
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CirdanLinweilin

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And we really don't understand why Tolkien wrote his late adumbrated tale. I [Galin] once wrangled with someone over at Minas Tirith forums who claimed that the impetus behind this revision was JRRT's faith, and that that should thus take precedence over Tolkien-published texts. Needless to say I disagreed with the "canon distinction" there, and find the penitent Galadriel no less Catholic/Christian in any case . . . plus, Tolkien had already spoken to the Virgin Mary comparison in nearly the same breath as calling her a penitent (in one of his letters).
If anything, her redemption in the published LOTR is More Catholic, and I am a Catholic saying that.


CL
 

Miguel

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Gil-galad was born in Middle-earth after his father journeyed from Eldamar in the Rebellion of the Noldor, whether his father was Fingon or Orodreth, so no ban against his sailing into the West was ever set. Galadriel, however, was one of the leaders of the Noldor and also one of the leaders of their Rebellion: she did face a ban on her return; or at least, she did in Tolkien’s mind as late as 1967.
Again, i'm not talking about Gil-galad or direct descendants of Finwë.

Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.
No comprendo. Could you explain to me what do you mean with this?. Do i have enemies now, really?. What enemies are you talking about?.
 
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Elthir

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I think it's just a "saying" . . . not meant to refer to any specific enemies of anyone, but rather to put a clever stamp on the first part of the message.
 

Miguel

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I think it's just a "saying" . . . not meant to refer to any specific enemies of anyone, but rather to put a clever stamp on the first part of the message.
Still confused. I dont' really know how you look at it but to me it sounds threatning and sketchy so, no. Still waiting for an actual explanation.
 

Erestor Arcamen

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Still confused. I dont' really know how you look at it but to me it sounds threatning and sketchy so, no. Still waiting for an actual explanation.
I think that it means, don't talk negatively or ill about yourself, your enemies will do that for you. I don't think anyone here was trying to insult anyone else or anything.
 

Elthir

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I've been chatting with Alcuin for years (not just here) and have never yet interpreted any post of his as threatening, even after some of my very annoying nitpicks of his usual, well informed posts (note: I wouldn't actually expect him to be threatening about my nitpicks -- that much is in jest, in case it's unclear). Again [repetition alert], I don't think the statement carries anything ill toward you . . . and I'm guessing it hails from one of the Stoics (or based on something from one of the Stoics)? Maybe something from M. Aurelius?

And I know I repeated myself a bit there. And that nobody asked me to :)

This post is mostly to annoy Ando!

Galin Unbanned
 
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