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Manwe vs. Morgorth? who would win?

Daeron

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Manwe vs. Melchar

Who do you think would win on a one on one fight? No other Valar present, just them.
 

Daeron

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Melchar is the original name of Morgoth the Enemy before he commited all the evil he did.
 

Ithrynluin

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That would be Melko or Melkor.

Welcome BTW!
 

Gothmog

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Since Melkor was in the begining the greatest of the Ainur and did stand aganst the rest of the Valar beating them at every turn, I would say that early on there would have been no contest. Melkor would have won without breaking into a sweat.

However, as Melkor spent himself in his lies and deceits he weakened himself to the point that I doubt he would be able to put up much of a fight even a gainst one of the lesser Maia. And as he also became a coward he would not even try.
 

Grond

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Originally posted by Gothmog
Since Melkor was in the begining the greatest of the Ainur and did stand aganst the rest of the Valar beating them at every turn, I would say that early on there would have been no contest. Melkor would have won without breaking into a sweat.

However, as Melkor spent himself in his lies and deceits he weakened himself to the point that I doubt he would be able to put up much of a fight even a gainst one of the lesser Maia. And as he also became a coward he would not even try.
ROFTL! Gothmog, that is our ex-boss you're talking about.

I would have whipped the living daylights out of Manwe anyday of the week. My boss would have swung me left, swung me right, and whopped his butt good. :)

On second thought... what Gothmog said. :)
 

Daeron

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Putting aside the fact that Morgoth was a coward(in his later years) I think that he was more powerful. But IF He wasnt the coward he turned into I think he could've whooped Manwe's ass.
 

Hobbit-GalRosie

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Um, I think Manwe would win hands down, and here's why:

Manwe and Melkor were bretheren in the thought of Iluvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world was in the beginning Melkor; but Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and all that dwell therein.
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited...Great might was given to him by Iluvatar, and he was coeval with Manwe. In the Powers and knowlege of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny.
I could go on and on, but I know how annoying that is. The point is that Melkor is constantly referred to as one who had great Power but lost much of it when he became evil. Manwe was his equal , (not, mind you, his little brother who doesn't quite measure up) which would make it an exciting match, but Melkor used his strength up in his deeds of wickedness and rage; therefore I imagine Manwe would be much more powerful. Also I like how in Tolkien's stories good has a way of triumphing, even under the most unlikely circumstances (Which a one-on-one fight would hardly be anyway). A couple of Hobbits destroying the Ring of Power is not what one could deem to be in the realm of possibility, but it happened. Besides, Manwe has Iluvatar on his side, and He doesn't have to interfere for things to turn out the way he wants them to.
 

Lantarion

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In light of the second of the above quotes provided by Hobbit-GalRosie, I would have to say that Manwë would be victorious. But if they were to fight before the Ainulindalë, I think Melkor would have won.
Welcome to the forum, obbit-GalRosie and Daeron! :)
 

Lhunithiliel

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As I understand Daeron's question, we're speaking here of a one-to-one fight.
IMO, in order to win such a fight, one has to AT LEAST:
feel a bit of hatred, a bit of envy, be a bit malicious, a bit cunning and tricky, wish a bit his opponent's defeat (death?), be a bit strong, have a bit of ambition....

And Melkor had A LOT of all these!

I see Manwe's strength in his alliance with the other Valar while Melkor, being a rebel almost since the beginning, is more fit for such a duel.
I think, Melkor would have won in one-to-one "mortal combat".
 

Hobbit-GalRosie

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With all due respect, I don't think it's necessary to be malicious to have motivation. I think Manwe did have a great deal of intelligence and cunning, although I don't have quotes to support it, since the library has reclaimed the copy of the Sil I was using before:rolleyes:. After all the evil done by Melkor I think Manwe would be more than determined enough to ensure an unpleasant end for the Dark Lord.
 

Ceorl

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Manwe was the equal of Morgoth over all perhaps, but Morgoth was also apparently "mightiest of the dwellers in Arda" which makes him stronger than Manwe, also I dont think that Manwe's strength was put into fighting. Personally I think that Tulkas stood a stronger chance of defeating him at any stage than did Manwe. Remember that Tulkas and Morgoth did fight one on one and Tulkas won.

Basically I am trying to say that Manwe was not a fighter.
 

Gothmog

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Manwe may well not have been a fighter. However, we do have something to show how Tolkien himself felt about this question, even if it never came up in the Silmarillion.
Then Melko sprang to his feet shouting in a loud voice and his folk came through all those dismal passages to his aid. Then lashed he at Manwe with an iron flail he bore, but Manwe breathed gently upon it and its iron tassels were blown backward,
from BolT1: IV THE CHAINING OF MELKO.

I think this shows that no matter how it was at the beginning. Melko/Melkor was no match even by the time of his first chaining.
 

Daeron

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Ah, I still think Melkor could have givin a good ass whoopin to manwe. Manwe wasnt even the physical type. He was more phylisophical book readin type....even though Valar didnt need to read books...
 

Hobbit-GalRosie

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Um, okay, I understand where you're coming from, Daeron, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd have never thought of that on my own. But I still think that Manwe would win, partly even because he wasn't the fighter type, and I don't think Melkor knew how to deal with that; I can only imagine his bewilderment when Manwe needed only breathe on his big, fancy whip and it was blown back useless. I think considering that the Valar don't even really need to have physical form the physical kind of strength is to some degree irrelevent. I don't think you have to be like Rambo or something to win a fight, although that helps:D. I think Manwe would win both by strength and by cunning.
 

Celebithil

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Melkor I think

If as according to the books they are exactly even in power and without any specifics in the types of power I believe that Melkor would win because of his cunning ways. He was the first to think of something other than Illuvator in the song he went off on his on even though the musci was bad it was his idea. He is more creative I think albeit in a destructive way. It really could go either way but I think in the end Melkor would win also im assuming this is when they first come to Arda before Melkor becomes Morgoth and diminishes because of his being on Earth and stuff like that.
 

Dwimmerlaik

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Lord Moran's Theory,
1/Those who are never afraid
2/Those whom are afraid,and carry on regardless
3/Those who are afraid and shirk.
This certainly isn't a comprhensive list of frailtie's,but it may well explain the juxtaposition of the unquestioned righteousness of the valar,to the maiar that were susceptible to Melkor, and those that were forced to take sides.
 

BlackCaptain

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I think Melkor would win if it was just a duel between them. But Manwe wins anyways, cuz he has all the other Valar, and they cast Melkor into the void. So by luetenints do you mean just like, 3, or as many as they wanted? Melkor would have Sauron, the Morgul King, (even thought he wasnt around yet) and... Sauraman? I think Manwe could only loose if it was 1 on 1.
 

CelebthĂ´l

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i think hed actually have somone like, Gothmog, Sauron and either Ancalagon or Glaurung (sp) and Manwe would have somone like Orome, Tulkas and either Aule or Ulmo!

ThĂ´l
 

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