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Melkor & Ancalagon The Black & Gothmog VS Tulkas

DarkLordMelkor

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Melkor & Ancalagon The Black & Gothmog VS Tulkas
  • Battle takes place in Mordor.
  • Basic knowledge for both sides.
  • Fight till death.
  • Who wins and why.
I just want to see who people believe can win this battle.. :rolleyes:

@Erestor Arcamen
What are your thoughts on this battle..?
 
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Erestor Arcamen

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I think Tulkas would beat Ancalagon and Gothmog since he's a valor.
Melkor I think would be a little more of a challenge but I think he'd hold his own and win.
 

mallos

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Melkor, Ancalagon and Gothmog would win. They just outnumber Tulkas three to one.
 

mallos

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Yes, Melkor isn't really the greatest warrior, being nearly beaten by an elf and all, but didn't it take Valar and Eärendil to take Ancalagon down?
 
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morgoth145

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Are we taking Morgoth at his greatest? If I recall correctly, during the days where Arda was still being shaped he warred with all the Valar, Tulkas included. At this stage he might be able to overpower Tulkas with the help of a corrupted Maia or two. But if we're taking the mostly dispersed Morgoth who has imbued Arda with most of his essence, I doubt whether he could stand against Tulkas, even with the help.
 

mallos

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It says at the top that the battle has to take place in Mordor, so we could take it that Morgoth would be at his least powerful, but then Ancalagon and Gothmog should be dead, so I suppose it all depends on what you pick.
 

DarkLordMelkor

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Are we taking Morgoth at his greatest? If I recall correctly, during the days where Arda was still being shaped he warred with all the Valar, Tulkas included. At this stage he might be able to overpower Tulkas with the help of a corrupted Maia or two. But if we're taking the mostly dispersed Morgoth who has imbued Arda with most of his essence, I doubt whether he could stand against Tulkas, even with the help.
It says at the top that the battle has to take place in Mordor, so we could take it that Morgoth would be at his least powerful, but then Ancalagon and Gothmog should be dead, so I suppose it all depends on what you pick.
All of them would be in their prime.

As for my personal thought based of the facts, is that Team wins with the highest difficulty.
 

Ingolmin

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As we can see in the history, Tulkas was a fearless Valar and Melkor was even afraid of him when he was in fury. So, if he defeat Melkor or not, there is a 90% chance that Melkor will run away. And for Ancalagon the Black and Gothmog are to easy to defeat for him as Gothmog being a Maiar has lesser power as compared to him, Ancalagon is only a dragon who can slain by an arrow and if Earendill could kill him, it would be a very easy task for Tulkas.
 

AhmedWafaa

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Sorry if the post was too old , but just to highlight points :

I would say if you mean Melkor in his prime form and before even the war against the other's valar , and before he changed into the darkness before leaving the light

Melkor would crash , smash , and kick Tulkas nor even him alone but with some of valar and by himself alone and without the need of maiar and here are things to mention

Tulkas was powerless when ungoliant insnares Tulkas in net and confused Orome and didn't see anything , and he was beating the air in vain and grow powerless and hanged there until the ungoliant and melkor escaped and the darkness disappeared and it’s net faded, (so it’s still could keep them permanent without the intervention of other valar and all the primordial powers of them were diminshed, were Tulkas could scatter all the darkness before him, yet he couldn't in companion with Orome from freeing themselves and scattering the shadows therin) , so no point of truth that he is incompetent , nonetheless Tulkas wouldn’t be a match for Melkor in his prime form before he dissipated his power and Tulkas came to the aid of valar , where Melker was able to match 14 of valar that time , until Tulkas arrived and tipped the balance , so Tulkas would be defeated but mostly by many maiars ( like many dragons and balrogs and other primal spirits ,sauron in his prime form , saruman as a maia but his power is unlimited but for sure not just asimple army , at the same times all the valar lost their power overtime and they weary so even for Tulkas and during the thirs age wouldn’t be as powerful as the time he descends to Arda , plus the winged dragons were able to let the Valar flee back and those are fallen maiar but not the creation of Melkor , When Tulkas wrestled with Melkor , it’s said wrestled with him not directly crushed him and cast him away and even J.R.R states that Sauron power were effectively better in first age than Melkor in the second age , so you could imagine until which level that melkor lost his power to the level that he was at a class the mightiest Valar to reduced below the Maiar level , add to this the same goes to other valar (like Tulkas).


=======================
atop of that being less grade doesn't mean they can't kill you if they overpowerd you , for example sauron destroyed first by man , Azug killed by man which it was fallen maia , ungoliant caught Tulkas and humiliate him.
 

Miguel

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I'm thinking they might have taken Melkor wielding fire and ice as reference to create this game character:



There's also this character called "Sauron" in this game:

 
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Olorgando

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This is a bit of a slippery question, as JRRT’s view of Melko(r)’s power relative to the other Valar shifted markedly over time – and only in one direction, down. I’m talking about Melko’s initial power, not the bit about his dissipating it (“Morgoth’s Ring”) so massively, a concept I believe also to have been there from the beginning (but was it?).

But then, what made Melko so outstanding in the early mythology was his having a share of all (?) the other Valars’ powers – a share, mind you, he was not the equal of any given Vala’s power in that Vala’s specialty! Which brings me to Tulkas: he was definitely a single skill guy – fighting. And there, no one was even remotely a match for him. I have vague memories of early stories of how the Valar, in their war on Melko because of the coming of the Elves, were at Utumno. Melko was having none of Tulkas just marching in on him, and the Valar pretended to bring Tulkas before him bound in the chain Angainor. So even this maximum-power Melko knew he didn’t stand a chance against an unfettered Tulkas! (And maybe Tulkas was also the only one able to carry that chain - not certain there.)

Taking that as a starting point, I can’t resist slipping into “Monty Python” modes for the other two:
Gothmog: Tulkas would have given him a drop-kick that sent him into orbit (meaning we need a round-earth for this scenario) :eek:
Ancalagon: Tulkas would have tied him into complicated seamen’s knots :eek:
And though not a part of the original question, Ungoliant was mentioned above. Now why were she and Melkor high-tailing it out of Valinor? Mostly Tulkas being after them, and Ungoliant had to resort to spewing out impenetrable fogs to mask their escape. Why didn’t she just turn around and face Tulkas? Because she knew Tulkas would have squashed her by stomping her into the ground, like I could with the spiders we have around here. :eek:

Monty Python off.;)

(Actually, when I find a spider in our apartment, I capture them with a glass and postcard, and release them from our balcony.) 🙂
 

Miguel

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Now why were she and Melkor high-tailing it out of Valinor? Mostly Tulkas being after them, and Ungoliant had to resort to spewing out impenetrable fogs to mask their escapeShe
The Ungoliant didn't just mask their escape, she basically rendered Tulkas, Oromë and his entire army of Maiar useless.


(Actually, when I find a spider in our apartment, I capture them with a glass and postcard, and release them from our balcony.) 🙂

☮
 

Gothmog

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Sorry if the post was too old , but just to highlight points :

I would say if you mean Melkor in his prime form and before even the war against the other's valar , and before he changed into the darkness before leaving the light

Melkor would crash , smash , and kick Tulkas nor even him alone but with some of valar and by himself alone and without the need of maiar and here are things to mention

Tulkas was powerless when ungoliant insnares Tulkas in net and confused Orome and didn't see anything , and he was beating the air in vain and grow powerless and hanged there until the ungoliant and melkor escaped and the darkness disappeared and it’s net faded, (so it’s still could keep them permanent without the intervention of other valar and all the primordial powers of them were diminshed, were Tulkas could scatter all the darkness before him, yet he couldn't in companion with Orome from freeing themselves and scattering the shadows therin) , so no point of truth that he is incompetent , nonetheless Tulkas wouldn’t be a match for Melkor in his prime form before he dissipated his power and Tulkas came to the aid of valar , where Melker was able to match 14 of valar that time , until Tulkas arrived and tipped the balance , so Tulkas would be defeated but mostly by many maiars ( like many dragons and balrogs and other primal spirits ,sauron in his prime form , saruman as a maia but his power is unlimited but for sure not just asimple army , at the same times all the valar lost their power overtime and they weary so even for Tulkas and during the thirs age wouldn’t be as powerful as the time he descends to Arda , plus the winged dragons were able to let the Valar flee back and those are fallen maiar but not the creation of Melkor , When Tulkas wrestled with Melkor , it’s said wrestled with him not directly crushed him and cast him away and even J.R.R states that Sauron power were effectively better in first age than Melkor in the second age , so you could imagine until which level that melkor lost his power to the level that he was at a class the mightiest Valar to reduced below the Maiar level , add to this the same goes to other valar (like Tulkas).


=======================
atop of that being less grade doesn't mean they can't kill you if they overpowerd you , for example sauron destroyed first by man , Azug killed by man which it was fallen maia , ungoliant caught Tulkas and humiliate him.
Much as I would love to say that Tulkas would lose the fact is the only reason Melkor escaped from Valinor is because Ungoliant covered their retreat with darkness.
And Tulkas was as one caught in a black net at night, and he stood powerless and beat the air in vain. But when the Darkness had passed, it was too late: Melkor had gone whither he would, and his vengeance was achieved.
All this means is that Tulkas could not see to pursue them and while this would allow for escape, it would not help much, if any, in a fight where once Tulkas had hold of any of them he would defeat them one at a time.
 

Olorgando

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The Ungoliant didn't just mask their escape, she basically rendered Tulkas, Oromë and his entire army of Maiar useless.

☮
By masking their escape, making it impossible for them to see anything, with her impenetrable fogs.
Which brings me to a point that just popped up in my mind: What was Manwë doing at this time? Being wimpy over the trees somewhere?
I mean, his title Súlimo is Quenya for "Lord of Winds"; he should have been able to whip up a storm that would have blasted Ungoliant's fog away in nothing flat.
(I know the external answer to that question the (manu-) script called for their escape, otherwise none of that action in the Sil. ;) )
 

Gothmog

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Not really being wimpy and it is likely that his winds would have had little effect over the darkness that surrounded Ungoliant.
But Manwë from his high seat looked out, and his eyes alone pierced through the night, until they saw a Darkness beyond dark which they could not penetrate,
So, while he could see through the outer fringes of Ungoliant's cover even his view was blocked where she was.
 

Olorgando

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OK, point taken - about him having the sharpest sight of all in Aman.
It doesn't say anything either way about his having used the winds which should have been at his command.
One might speculate that even he thought they might not be effective.
But he did not even try, apparently (the professor might have given me a decidedly "not amused" look at this statement, suggesting I go back to reading my superhero comics … 😞)
Anyway, I won't retract my nag, and I continue to view Manwë as having just a bit too much of a wimp in him to be an effective guardian of Arda. 😝
 

Gothmog

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The information about his use of winds comes at the beginning of the next chapter.
After a time a great concourse gathered about the Ring of Doom; and the Valar sat in shadow, for it was night. But the stars of Varda now glimmered overhead, and the air was clear; for the winds of Manwë had driven away the vapours of death and rolled back the shadows of the sea.
So it would seem to be the case that either his winds would have no effect on the central darkness around Ungoliant or that they would take time to remove them. Unless of course he chose to use such strong winds as would remove the buildings and Elves also.

I cannot argue against him not being as effective as he could have been. His biggest flaw was that he was too trusting of Melkor and not trusting enough of those who were standing with him to protect Arda.
 

Olorgando

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… Unless of course he chose to use such strong winds as would remove the buildings and Elves also. ...
OK, so he can get rid of the stuff, though it might take time. As far as I know, little is known about the settlement in Valinor. I'd guess that the Elves (mostly Vanyar) would not stray very far from Taniquetil. Probably furthest away would have been Fëanor's abode during his exile, where Finwë was killed when Melkor stole the Silmarils. Most likely towards the north. But Melkor and Ungoliant were well past that and further north by the time news of the theft came. And were basically being pursued by Tulkas and Oromë. I would think that those two worthies would think little of a category 5 hurricane, and Tulkas would slap aside the strongest conceivable tornado easily. So where's the problem?
(Maybe I should just stop nagging at Manwë again for a while.) ;)
 

Gothmog

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I don't think there are any writings that show one way or another if the winds of Manwë could affect the core darkness surrounding Ungoliant. So I will just have to leave it with my view that Manwë did what he could with his control of the airs but even that would not remove the darkness where Ungoliant was sufficiently to allow Tulkas to find them.
 

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