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Morgoth's Power VS. Sauron's

YayGollum

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Since when? He was Mel, then Feanor got mad and came up with an insulting name for him. He was still Mel. I am wondering at what point Mel decided to go with it. "Random scout, what's with all of these pathetic elves mad at some guy named Morgoth? Argh! Haven't I given them enough to whine about? Who's trying to upstage me?"

After cringing ---> "Ah, Your Awesomeness, I think they've given you a nickname."

After musing ---> "Hmmm...Melkor...Morgoth...Hm! Yes, Morgoth does sound scarier! I'll need new business cards!"
 

Illuin

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by Yay Gollum
After musing ---> "Hmmm...Melkor...Morgoth...Hm! Yes, Morgoth does sound scarier! I'll need new business cards!"
That’s pretty funny (reminds me, need some new business cards myself).

by Arvedui
I don't quite agree, Illuin. Cautiousness or wisdom were not the main factors, methinks.
Just imagining something here: if Sauron was at the peak of his power at the end of the Second Age (technically he was at his peak before the fall of Númenor); but let’s just use the time of the War of The Last Alliance for simplicity. Melkor was supposedly at his weakest at the time of the War of Wrath. Hypothetically; if the army of The Last Alliance were to battle Melkor at the time of the War of Wrath (Ancalagon and other winged dragons, several Balrogs, an innumerable number of Orcs and Men, etc.); do you honestly think the Last Alliance army would have been victorious; as they were against Sauron at the end of the Second Age? I seriously doubt it. I don’t recall Sauron able to form and breed great winged dragons; as Melkor (at his weakest) managed to do. Tolkien used the word “greater” as it related to cleverness and wisdom. Sauron was able to make a little go a long way; relatively speaking; and Mel did not (again, relatively speaking). But on the whole, who would you rather battle if you were Elendil and Gil-galad heading the Last Alliance? Mel during the War of Wrath certainly wouldn't be my choice.
 
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Úlairi

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Interesting thread. Sauron was far more conservative in the expenditure of his power than Morgoth, who was like a thirteen year old girl on a shopping spree with Daddy's (Eru's) Mastercard. Sauron was the employee who chose to invest - but thankfully not on today's stockmarkets. Corrupting angelic beings to domination by your will - $50; Destroying the earth's only light source - $100; finding out you got screwed by one of your employees after being indicted by the Valar for fraud and disorderly conduct - priceless. Some things money just can't buy; for everything else - there's Mastercard.

A point that I wish to add is that Sauron in my opinion was incredibly intelligent, perhaps even moreso than his nihilistic master as despite the great power he 'delegated' from himself into the Ring to the point that if it were destroyed then so would he in turn, the One Ring actually empowered Sauron.

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - # 131: To Milton Waldman

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing) ... But to achieve this he [Sauron] had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it , his power on earth was actually enhanced.
So Sauron not only ensured that his investments would remain but he got a return on them; which is unheard of! (Sorry, I'm a little frustrated with my superannuation). :mad:

The concept of Morgoth's Ring is mindblowing; and it explains why Ungoliant was able to overcome him. Sauron on the other hand inherited Arda; and had only Morgoth to thank. Sauron was the blood-sucking partner who walked away with Morgoth's assets.

What do you believe the outcome of a contest with the Valar may have been if Morgoth had not been so obsessed with the erma of Arda and wastefully dissipate his being into it? He may have been far more successful if he hadn't squandered himself in arbitrary nihilism...

Cheers,

Úlairi.
 
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Prince of Cats

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What do you believe the outcome of a contest with the Valar may have been if Morgoth had not been so obsessed with the erma of Arda and wastefully dissipate his being into it? He may have been far more successful if he hadn't squandered himself in arbitrary nihilism...

Cheers,

Úlairi.
Well ...

What powers Did Morgoth have before and did not have later? There is the obvious issue of his physical body, but what else?
 

Mithrandir-Olor

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Mel still wins because Sauron became just some powerless spirit, most likely wandering and festering Middle Earth for the rest of time, while Mel still has whatever power he had when he was tossed into the Void. Still not dead, still having fun in the Void, most probably leading all kinds of different songs out there, making all kinds of buddies of the Ainur who decided not to come to Arda.

Well, Tolkien says exactly that.....
He says Sauron, after the destruction of the Ring, becomes a powerless spirit, unable to regenerate. Morgoth, meanwhile, is in the Void & I recall somewhere JRRT states that Morgoth in time, will indeed recover his power. Now, where is that? - It must be in HoME Volume 10 or 11 I bet.

Unlike Sauron, Morgoth, in his twisted evil way, wanted not just to rule the earth but to sculpt it to his own design which (as Yay might say) included getting rid of all those nassty little flowers and horrid prancy elf creatures.

It's funny, but in that Essay, Tolkien actually mentions that Morgoth is more interested, say, 'In a volcanic eruption than a tree'.....
Also, it dawns on me that if Morgoth did get rid of all the Men, Elves & finally Orcs & trolls, would he then move on to his dragons, werewolves & finally 'minor spirits' & Balrogs & Sauron (if possible). I think, when Morgoth found himself alone, or left with just Sauron, the Balrogs & Ancalagon the Black, he'd be one unhappy mofo, & they'd all either sit around b#tching at one another before ending up in one heck of a battle!

However, Melkor's dischord affected the foundations of the earth, entwined with the song of the Ainur in its formation; and so the undoing of his power was no small matter. When it eventually became inescapable, it cost Beleriand, where he had been most active. And surely (or so I hypothesise), this destruction also took with it much of the power spent on it by the rest of the Ainur; not least Yavanna.

Well put, especially about Beleriand. We in fact see that Yavanna's greatest work, The Two Trees, which, she could only accomplish once within Arda, like Feanor's Silmarils, is destroyed by Melkor's guile.

Sauron always tricked people, hid and waited, or just latched himself to Mel, pathetically.

I would say he was wiser. He couldn't defeat Ar-Pharazon militarily, so he feigned to bow down in fealty. He goes there & pretends that he wants them to worship 'Melkor, Lord of Darkness' & 'Giver of Gifts' when obviously "Worship me, Dark Lord Sauron" just won't due right then & there. Next thing you know, The Faithful are being burned alive, Sauron is standing on the top of his temple defying the lightning from the Valar & Ar-Pharazon is on his way to attack Valinor & Numenor is on it's way to a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.....
Then, there's the deal with Annatar, 'Lord of Gifts', where he mascarades as an ambassader from the Valar (foreshadowing the Istari), making the Rings of Power to enslave the Peoples of Middle-earth after he makes the Ruling Ring.
Sauron is nothing if not tricksey.....
As far as hitching himself to Melkor, Melkor seduced him to his service, not vice-versa.
You know what's funny. Sauron is actualy much more like how I envision Satan when reading The Bible. Atleast that's the impreison your post gives.
 

morgoth145

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You forget that Morgoth had a Balrog, unless I am very much mistaken. The Balrog could easily defeat Sauron.
well morgoth did have a small army of balrogs willing to follow him, yes.
but the balrogs usually weren't of such a high order as sauron was.
sauron was higher in rank maia wise and ranking in morgoths army wise.
sauron was melkors lieutenant of angband.
so i guess sauron could defeat that balrog, but against a whole army, he would probably lose.
 

Miguel

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I had no idea about this, that's a lovely quote:

"This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men."
 

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