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MY HARD QUESTION #3: Why didn't Frodo command the Nazgul?

Úlairi

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:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: This is the last of my hard questions. I know and so do most of you that the One Ring had the power to control the Nine, however, when Frodo put it on, the Nazgul were drawn to it and even tried to kill Frodo or at least send him into the 'Wraith World'. Could Frodo had slipped the Ring and command the Nazgul to go back to Mordor or to even go and jump off a cliff somewhere??? OPINIONS PLEASE!!!:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
 

Bill the Pony

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Maybe I can beat Grond in quoting the same letter again (#246)? Here Tolkien addresses this very same question

When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself.
The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring!
 

Eonwe

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that is the kwlest friggin quote of all time. Great job BtP. Frodo would have to jump into the Crack 'O Doom:

Frodo: "Don't make me do it. Don't make me jump. Why shouldn't I jump?"

The Nazgul try to position themselves so as to leap and catch Frodo if he jumps

Sauron: "Stove top stuffing instead of potatoes!"

All Nazguls lick lips and say

Nazguls: "OOOOoooohhhh!"


I wish I had had the following line:

"He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him"

I would have been able to back up many arguments in many threads :)
 

Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Eonwe
that is the kwlest friggin quote of all time. Great job BtP. Frodo would have to jump into the Crack 'O Doom:

Frodo: "Don't make me do it. Don't make me jump. Why shouldn't I jump?"

The Nazgul try to position themselves so as to leap and catch Frodo if he jumps

Sauron: "Stove top stuffing instead of potatoes!"

All Nazguls lick lips and say

Nazguls: "OOOOoooohhhh!"


I wish I had had the following line:

"He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him"

I would have been able to back up many arguments in many threads :)




Yes that is the perfect answer. Like how it is stated in the book, it would take time to learn how to "üse"the ring.
 

Úlairi

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Great answer Bill!

:D :D :D Great answer Bill, thanks for clearing that up for me. Eonwe and Beleg, I have continually have heard about the 'use' of the ring, yet I know that only one has the will to control it, and that is Sauron, no one else. Not even Saruman or Gandalf for that matter. Gandalf says that not even he could control the power of the ring. So how could Frodo possibly 'use' it if the ring controlled him. Wouldn't it just force him to walk straight up to Sauron and make him take it off and give it back?:confused: :D :D
 
H

Harad

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Same #246 has Gandalf using the Ring to beat Sauron, but not controlling it:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
 

Úlairi

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That's brilliant Harad!!!

:D :D :D Thanks for that Harad, now if the scenario was the other way around i.e. Sauron had the Ring and Gandalf was the only thing standing between Sauron and absolute domination. For Gandalf was afraid to actually go to ME and confront Sauron, as it says in UT. Gandalf knew himself that Sauron would have won with or without the Ring against him, if Gandalf did not have the Ring himself. This is because Sauron was of the greatest order of Maiar, and close to the power of Eonwe, yet not as powerful. Gandalf knew he would be overcome by Sauron, I believe Sauron knew this also. I mean, Gandalf the Grey was slain by a Balrog, Gandalf the White was afraid to face the Witch-King, Sauron's most powerful servant, yet no match for the power of his master, Sauron. Anyone agree??? And, by the way Harad, thanks again. Also, where can I find these "letters of J.R.R. Tolkien?" :) :D :D
 

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

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Originally posted by Ulairi
I mean, Gandalf the Grey was slain by a Balrog, Gandalf the White was afraid to face the Witch-King, Sauron's most powerful servant, yet no match for the power of his master, Sauron.
Wait a second... am I confused? Didn't Gandalf (new and improved version) face down the Witch King at the gate of Minas Tirith? Yes, the chief Nazgul turned and left before their strength was fully tested, but Gandalf certainly wasn't afraid to face him.
 

Bucky

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Yup, you're right.
But don't forget this guy's name: Ulari.

He's going to defend his main men.....

This is actually how it goes:
Denethor: "Is it possible you have withdrawn (from the Witch-king) because you were overmatched?"

Gandalf: "It might be so. BUT our trial of strength is not yet come."

Bill the Pony, & Harad:
Nice typing. I was thinking of that very letter & how long it would take me to type with one finger.......


BTW, I don't if anyone mentioned Frodo's conversation with Galadriel at The Mirror of Galadriel.
Frodo asks her why he can't see the other ringbearers & 'know their thoughts'.
Galadriel responds "You have not tried....And before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, & train your mind to the dominion of others."
 
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Úlairi

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Thankyou Bucky!

:D :D :D I withdraw what I said about Gandalf being afraid, but he was WORRIED that he may be overcome by the power of the Witch-King. Thankyou Bucky, I was actually referring to that when I posted my previous thread, but I didn't quote it! (Great minds think alike!) Anyway, this is beside the point, I was asking when I posted this thread whether the Nine were actually wearing their rings or whether they weren't! I am amazed at how some threads can go so off-track from the topic!!!:D :D :D
 

Úlairi

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Sorry!

:D :D :D Sorry, I was thinking of another thread I did when I said that the topic was if the Nazgul were wearing their rings or not, the topic was if Frodo could command the Nazgul! My mistake! I have another question I would like properly answered in another thread. It is in this forum, on the first page, but it isn't getting any attention. Please, I would love some answers on that thread! Anybody?!:D :D :D
 

Bucky

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It's stated sdomewhere, actually more than one place, I think, that Sauron had the nine rings of The Nazgul in his posession.
I'm sure it's in Tolkien's Letters, as I just finished reading that, but also in a less obscure source.

Nine fingers for nine rings, a perfect match.....
 

Úlairi

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Yeah!

:D :D :D Yeah, very clever Bucky, and even though its a joke, and its not bad mind you, I don't think Sauron wore the nine, but he just kept them locked up in Barad-dur somewhere!:D :D :D
 

Bill the Pony

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:D What happens if a mortal wears two rings of power at the same time? He becomes visible again? Indefeatable? dies?
 
O

Orome

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The way I conceive it is that since Sauron put part of his own power into the ring, just as the elves put part of the power of the elven race into their rings which would lead to their being deminished once the rings were powerless, there was will too substancial for Frodo to master in the ring. It would be like Frodo vying with part of the will of Sauron himself. The others could possibly control the ring but maybe why they could not alter it completely is that they could not alter who Sauron is. To fight the power within the ring they would not gain benefit of the power. To gain benefit of the power within the ring they would have to be at some harmony with that which was within, a part of Sauron's will. Even if defeating Sauron they would have to do it within the will of Sauron in a way. They would have to be corrupted to be as Sauron for the will within the ring to be willing to work with them. Frodo was not even of stature for the ring to be willing to work with him. Using the ring is like making an alliance. Terms have to be come to which are agreeable and the ring would not agree to certain terms. Terms agreeable: One being that it be used for power and domination because the will of Sauron was within it. The other being only that one of sufficient will and power of himself/herself could ally with it who could forward the purpose of the ring, that being part of the will of Sauron. To ally with it, you would have to become as it and have suffient power the ring would accept the alliance. Best I can make of it and not sure if explaining how I mean well. Frodo could not meet conditions the ring itself set forth so he could not have used the power of the ring against the nazgul but rather the ring would use its own power to betray him such as it had betrayed others.
 

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