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Númenórean long lifespan - A mistake?

Beleg

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In my scenario, if men had not accepted Morgoth they would remain immortal; marred, as everything in Arda, but immortal. But once they accepted and worshipped him, they fell much more (not liable to be compared with Elves, since Elves never worshipped Morgoth).
So In your scenario the men of the Three houses of Edain had also accepted and worshiped Morgoth?

But I think that their acceptance of Morgoth is what spurred the corruption of their fëar and hröar. Didn't Eru say something to that effect as the Voice? That since they accepted Morgoth they would soon die and come back to Him, Eru? As if their deaths is a consquence of their worship...
Morgoth's power wasn't centrecized. It was found in equal propotion in every partical. I am not sure the acceptance of Morgoth as lord would have spurred the marring of their souls.
In which book is the Quote you are refering to?

Picture, say, the Mouth of Sauron; that's what was in the future of Men without death to cut them short. And death is thus a very great gift of Eru, a way for them to get away from their enslaver, Morgoth. Eru could not really "unenslave" them without breaking their free will. Men could repent and turn to Eru, but their fëar were already marred, as a result of men's free choices.
Sauron is different from Morgoth. Besides Sauron is a Necromencer. He has control over spirits and with his arts Might be able to give them a bodily form.
And In the case of Mouth of Sauron, he has by his own freewill acepted the virtual slavery of Sauron; but in the case of the whole race of Men in general It cannot apply as so.
 

Eriol

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Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
So In your scenario the men of the Three houses of Edain had also accepted and worshiped Morgoth?
No, but they were the descendants of people who did; and that resulted in an inheritable marring of the fëa.

The quote about the Voice is from the Athrabeth; I may be wrong, I have read it only once.

And as for the difference between immortal men and elves -- I have no idea.

:D
 

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Men are driven. We search, we invent, we grow, we demand, we challenge, we push and push and push till our arms break. In the Finrod and Andreth debate Finrod says that the Eldar observe that when Men love something, it seems to be because it reminds them of something else. Men search always, constantly, trying to find this something else.

My idea is this: that "something else" we are always searching for is Arda Unmarred, the true and natural state of everything we observe, had Melkor not infested the world. We die because, our bodies being fed by the marred Earth, we percieve our bodies themselves as being "marred." But the flaw is this: we don't know where to look for the answer. Arda is our home, but our home is different, therefore we do not accept it. For this I believe is Melkor's "darkness" upon the hearts of men: that we fear and cannot accept what we do not understand and thus cannot control. We don't understand the marring. We don't understand why things aren't the way they should be. Therefore we fear and reject them, even our own bodies, where, if Melkor had not cast his shadow upon us, we would have cared for them and tried to remedy them from within. In this sense, the "gift of men," if it is what I stated at the beginning, would be the source of death, but not death in and of itself. The Valar would be partly correct and partly mistaken: this world isn't our home, but it should be.
 

Eriol

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I think I agree. And what about men's lifespans? Were they immortal, long-lived, or just had ordinary lifespans before Morgoth messed with them?
 

Inderjit S

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As Andreth in theAthrabeth Finrod ah Andreth states, It was the belief of Men that they were 'immortal' before their corruption by Melkor. Though the Valar evidently know about mortal Men-it was in their nature, so each contradict another, and since men are more likely to err, I belive that it is a misconception on their part, rather then the Valar being 'wrong'.

BUT, I think this was the scenario. Men could CHOOSE when to go to Eru and leave the circles of the world-they COULD be immortal or have a longeveal life but it was in their nature to leave Arda. Eru then cut their life-span short, so they could go to him and confess who the real good god was. But the essence of this was seen in the Numenoreans-they lived very long lives and for a long time could choose when they died, until they squandered this. Remeber the Eldar themselves aren't immortal, Arda wasn't immortal, and they lived as long as Arda lasted, I think it is as Finrod asserts-they live until Arda expires. Thus we can see that Men had the true 'gift' in their oft-misunderstood and squandered ability to leave Arda when they chose-the Eldar had no such power.

We don't know whether or not men were immortal at the time. Andreth says no one had yet died.
 

Eriol

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Originally posted by Inderjit S
As Andreth in theAthrabeth Finrod ah Andreth states, It was the belief of Men that they were 'immortal' before their corruption by Melkor. Though the Valar evidently know about mortal Men-it was in their nature, so each contradict another, and since men are more likely to err, I belive that it is a misconception on their part, rather then the Valar being 'wrong'.

BUT, I think this was the scenario. Men could CHOOSE when to go to Eru and leave the circles of the world-they COULD be immortal or have a longeveal life but it was in their nature to leave Arda. Eru then cut their life-span short, so they could go to him and confess who the real good god was. But the essence of this was seen in the Numenoreans-they lived very long lives and for a long time could choose when they died, until they squandered this. Remeber the Eldar themselves aren't immortal, Arda wasn't immortal, and they lived as long as Arda lasted, I think it is as Finrod asserts-they live until Arda expires. Thus we can see that Men had the true 'gift' in their oft-misunderstood and squandered ability to leave Arda when they chose-the Eldar had no such power.

We don't know whether or not men were immortal at the time. Andreth says no one had yet died.
I don't see much of a difference between immortality and unlimited lifespan; if men could live as long as they wanted to, they were in effect immortals. If they were "super-numenoreans" in the beginning, why not later? What prevented the Valar from granting the same benefits to the Numenóreans?

If the effect of Morgoth's actions was merely psychological, turning the perception of death (and not death itself) from a gift into a curse (as the Valar taught); and if men were innately immortal (or voluntarily mortal, which, as I said, I think is the same thing); then why could not the Valar dispel the psychological effects of Morgoth's marring? Perhaps a self-esteem course :D.

Seriously, I think that if we assume that men were immortal at the beginning, or that they could choose the time of their deaths AND had no "maximum limit" for that, then we must conclude that Morgoth's messing was much more serious than what we see in the Published Silmarillion; that Andreth was right in that he could taint a whole race.

And this in itself undermines the claims to the Valar's authority on that matter. For they taught Finrod; and Finrod could not believe that Morgoth could do such a thing. And yet Morgoth did such a thing, as seen from the fact that the Valar could not undo it by teaching. (Assuming men were "immortal" in your sense, Inderjit, at the beginning).

I think we are forced to conclude that there is much that the Valar don't know about Morgoth -- or Men -- if we accept the "primitive immortality" of men.

Of course, there is no way to solve the contradiction between Andreth and the Valar within the legendarium; for the legendarium was written by elves and elves' pupils, and these elves were the pupils of the Valar. So we have no "outside" standard to check Andreth's claims -- all that we can find in Tolkien's works, with the exception of the Letters, is written from "the Valar viewpoint".
 

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Originally posted by Malbeth
One thing I don't understand about Andreth's (and Eriol's) theory is what exactly was the difference between men and elves before men fell?
I suppose the main difference between them is what happens to their fëar when they die.
Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Morgoth's power wasn't centrecized. It was found in equal propotion in every partical.
From Myths Transformed:
Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)
It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled - as all things could.)
Originally posted by Eriol
Seriously, I think that if we assume that men were immortal at the beginning, or that they could choose the time of their deaths AND had no "maximum limit" for that, then we must conclude that Morgoth's messing was much more serious than what we see in the Published Silmarillion; that Andreth was right in that he could taint a whole race.
He was by far the most powerful being in Eä after all.
 

Inderjit S

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I don't see much of a difference between immortality and unlimited lifespan; if men could live as long as they wanted to, they were in effect immortals
But want is Men's great downfall. Sure they had the power to live forever (maybe, or certainly a fairly long time, there was no way of knowing if they were immortal or not, they were a pretty young race when they fell under Melkor's dominion) but what would have happened if they had attempted to go against their nature? What would happen to anything that goes against it's true nature? Look at the Mouth of Sauron or the nazgul-they became horrible wraith or monster like creatures. Or a even better example is that of Tar-Atanamir, the 13th King of Numenor and grand-son of Tar-Minastir, who helped Gil-Galad when Sauron invaded Eriador.

Atanmir is also called the unwilling, for he was the first of the kings, to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce the sceptre; and he lived until death took him peforce in dotage
Line of Elros; Unfinished Tales

Tar-Atanamir To him came messages from the Valar which he rejected. He clung to life for a extra 50 years
History of Akkalabeth; HoME 12

So we can see that Atanamir's clinging to life reduced him to dotage and he died eventually anyway. It was a misuse of Eru's gift.

Yet Laws and Customs explains to us that the Mannish hroa and fea was not powerful enough to sustain immortality-but this could be exaplained as the Elves had no record of Men until after their corruption by Melkor.

What prevented the Valar from granting the same benefits to the Numenóreans
Eru is the only one who could alter the nature of the children. Remeber it was Eru NOT Melkor who altered their nature-Melkor simply was the cause for Eru's anger and hence his altering of their true nature.

then why could not the Valar dispel the psychological effects of Morgoth's marring
They tried to. Remeber the Elven messenger from Valinor to Numenor? And what happened? Men simply rejected them.

that Andreth was right in that he could taint a whole race
Myths Transformed tells us how he tainted all of Arda-even the Elves who were born in M-E took that taint to Aman, hence Miriel's death-a result of the marring. It was possible for him to taint a race that lived in lands that were marred due to him.
 

Eriol

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Let's take the first generation of men. If they want to be immortal, why would that be going against their nature? If they can be immortal, the want is not unnatural. If a bird can fly, the wish to fly is not unnatural. It is only if we assume (with the Elves) that men were innately mortal that we can say that this is an unnatural want.

Mouth of Sauron and Tar-Atanamir are fallen men; their wish is unnatural, as in "against nature". The nature of men at that moment is to die; but if that was NOT their nature in the beginning, then the will to avoid death was also NOT unnatural.

Our take on this depends on whether we take that first generation to be immortal or not (and "voluntary mortality" is immortality, or at least I still think it is... :eek: ).

First scenario: men were not immortal (Finrod)

Then, no change in their natures happened after Morgoth met them; Morgoth only changed their perception of death, and this is more than anything a psychological trick; sure, it is a very ingrained trick, since the Valar could not take it out, but it is still psychological.

In that scenario, the lengthening of the Numenórean lifespan is a bit hard to explain; for the Valar were aware that Men were "strange", and there is no reason to make them longeval in addition to giving them lore and land. Perhaps it is an unforeseen side effect of the proximity to Aman; we must remember that all Numenóreans got this, not only the line of Elros (who had elven and maia blood to account for it). In any effect, this scenario concludes that the Valar were wrong in granting this to them; or that they were unlucky in that their gifts to them resulted in a longer lifespan. For a longer lifespan is neither deserved nor expected in this scenario -- men were always mortal, and they would not expect to become less mortal after the fights against Morgoth. The Edain were not stupid, and they were not dreamers; they were proud to be men.

The Valar should instead have taught them about Morgoth's tricks, dispelling his deception; after all, they could consult with Finrod to get details of that ;). But they never attempted to do so; they simply instituted a ban, and said -- "be merry". (The Elves instructed the Dúnedain, not the Valar). If Aulë and Ulmo had spent some time in Númenór teaching them, I guess this would be enough. (I know Manwë, the sluggard, does not leave Aman... :D).

Eru did not take part in anything, in this scenario, related to the nature of men. It remained the same from the beginning.

Second scenario: men were immortal

This means that something made them mortal; and I don't think it was Eru, Inderjit, at least not clearly. I think Morgoth could have done it. The Voice says that "they will die", not that "I will kill you". But this is a side matter, because even if Eru was behind the change, in this scenario Morgoth is much more powerful, for his marring is much more deeper - so much deeper that Eru has to institute death to remedy it, to prevent the "Mouth of Sauron" effect. His marring is one that passes, by heredity, to all children of men (in the previous scenario it was psychological, i.e., cultural -- not inherited, but rather learned). This marring either resulted in mortality, or it was so deep and harmful that it resulted in Eru's institution of mortality. Also in this scenario the guilt of men is much greater -- while before they were mostly deceived by fear of a real mortality, now they embrace Morgoth freely even though they have no mysterious thing (death) to force them into his arms.

Here the Numenórean lifespan is a terrible blunder, for the Valar were actually delaying Eru's medicine! Fallen men were much more "fallen" in this scenario; bliss and goodness were simply stimulants to restlessness and, in the end, evil; Eru knew it and shortened their lifespans for that reason (or He allowed Morgoth to do it); and the Valar enter the story to increase their lengths. Big blunder. And no amount of teaching could have helped; the problem in this scenario is not psychological, it is not that they were fooled by Morgoth -- it is that they are CHANGED. No Valar could "unchange" them.

Behind all this is Morgoth's marring of all matter in Arda, of course; but this is something that he did before any of the Children arose, and surely could not have such grievous effects on men while leaving elves relatively free. No, I think the "diffuse marring" is not enough to explain man's mortality; Morgoth either messed deeply with their nature, or prompted Eru to do so (Andreth); or perhaps he did not mess at all with their nature, but only fooled them (Finrod). The "diffuse marring" is the background for this, but it is not of much importance, or so I think.
 

Inderjit S

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Let's take the first generation of men. If they want to be immortal, why would that be going against their nature
But immortality wasn't an issue with first-gen men. (Has a nice ring to it yes?) since they hadn't yet experienced death itself how could death be a issue or mortality itself.

Look at this note by Tolkien to the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

The Elves believe that all men died (a fact confirmed by Men). They therefore deduced that this was 'natural' to Men (was by the design of Eru) and supposed that the brevity of human life was due to this character of the human fea; that it was not designed to stay long in Arda.
Of course, this is a Elvish stipulation it is their thoughts, and since Elves are not infallible, and seemingly Men are in a better position to judge their own natures it is difficult to choose which one is 'right'. But this Elven belief was not a idea given to them by the Valar they construed this themselves after they had met Men, and quizzed them on their nature and seen it themselves. Men are in effect 'guests'.

This Elven stipulation is epitomised by Finrod's words to Andreth. Finrod was the 'wisest of the exiles'. And a great lover of men. He would not make rash assumptions. Andreth herself says;


'You speak strange words Finrod' said Andreth 'which I have not heard before. Yet my heart is stirred as if by some truth that it recognises even if it does not understand it'
The nature of men at that moment is to die; but if that was NOT their nature in the beginning, then the will to avoid death was also NOT unnatural.
But their will at the beginning had nothing to do with death, since they didn't know what it was. They fell because of their eagerness and curiosity, plus their reverence for Melkor and their fickle nature.

Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died
Then our terror of the Dark was increased; for we believed at the Voice was of the Darkness behind the stars. And some of us began to die in horror and anguish, fearing to go out into the Dark. Then we called on our Master to save us from death, and he did not answer. But when we went to the House and all bowed down there, at last he came, great and majestic, but his face was cruel and proud.
Thereafter we were grievously afflicted, by weariness, and hunger, and sickness; and the Earth and all things in it were turned against us. Fire and Water rebelled against us. The birds and beasts shunned us, or if they were strong they assailed us. Plants gave us poison; and we feared the shadows under trees
But they never attempted to do so; they simply instituted a ban, and said -- "be merry
They received instruction from Eonwe, after the World Of Wrath. I think it may be as Finrod says, maybe men are too powerful for the Valar to deal with. I think the Valar consulted Eru before the giving of the gift, since the Valar could not alter men's nature.

This means that something made them mortal; and I don't think it was Eru, Inderjit, at least not clearly. I think Morgoth could have done it
No.

The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged.
Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Only Eru-the creator could alter their nature-no one else, not Melkor, not Manwe, or anyone else.

Plus Eru TOLD them that they would come to him sooner-thus they would see who lied.


Here the Numenórean lifespan is a terrible blunder, for the Valar were actually delaying Eru's medicine
They simply gave men to 'gift' or it seems to them of longer life. But surely, since none but Eru could have sanctioned it, then Eru knew and approved and allowed for the transformation to take place, he didn't know Men would misuse it, it is apparent that although he is seen as a all-seeing and infallible power he cannot know ALL that will take place-the free-will of Men and others decides their own fate. Eru only cut their life-span short so they say who was telling the truth, by now the wise Atani would know who it was, Eru, they, for a while worshipped him and set up a temple of sort in Meneltarma, the whole point of Eru reducing their life-span, to 'choose' the right person to worship was void, the Atani were good men, they weren't as fickle as the first-gen men, they learnt from their mistakes. Or so it seems-at the start. Eventually they too squandered their git. (For Eriol's benefit, hope your not as confused as previously.;) )
 
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Eriol

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Originally posted by Inderjit S
But immortality wasn't an issue with first-gen men. (Has a nice ring to it yes?) since they hadn't yet experienced death itself how could death be a issue or mortality itself.
Not as nice a note as the mysterious ending of your post...

:D



Look at this note by Tolkien to the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
I never thought of it by that angle. Eru only told the Valar that he would give "a new gift" to the Atani; were the Valar ignorant of death? I dimly recall (no books here) that the reason for Manwë's withholding of the news that Men were coming from the Elves was a concern about their mortality, which would nullify that speculation of mine (that Valar had no idea of what was death until they met Eärendil, in a gross exaggeration; or at least, not before the Sun had risen).

Your quotes highlight a different aspect of it, the "revolt of Nature against men"; the birds and beasts shunned them, plants gave poison, etc. Note that death came before this happened, in Andreth's story. It seems that this happened only after they freely bowed to Morgoth, in a complete act of submission.

I'm not quite sure what that means :).

Perhaps it means that death is natural in men; I'll have to re-read the Athrabeth to check on that (immortality is such a cute theory... a pity to discard it). Perhaps it means that Eru's intervention was "preventive", made before Morgoth's messing was complete; but I think (personally) that this would be a stretch of the theory. Perhaps it means that death was a result of the refusal of the Voice, of Eru; I am rather atttracted to that. The "bad effects" would only settle in after they worship Morgoth completely, but death is instantaneous, either by Eru or by Morgoth (for I'm not convinced that Morgoth could not do it -- see below).

But their will at the beginning had nothing to do with death, since they didn't know what it was. They fell because of their eagerness and curiosity, plus their reverence for Melkor and their fickle nature.
Well, it is exactly because of their eagerness and curiosity that they would be terrified at the idea of death, wouldn't they? Just as the Elves fear the end of Arda. The unknown is not as homely as the not-yet-known; men would not welcome the idea of ceasing to be just out of curiosity.

No.

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Only Eru-the creator could alter their nature-no one else, not Melkor, not Manwe, or anyone else.

Plus Eru TOLD them that they would come to him sooner-thus they would see who lied.
It comes to this: how authoritative is Myths Transformed? Is it the word of Tolkien about his world, or of an elven scholar? I don't remember :eek:; I'll check it. If it is Tolkien, then it is settled, Morgoth could not have done it. But if it is an elven scholar, the same problem applies.

The quote from Myth's Transformed takes the blame (if any) from the Valar and places it upon Eru, at least as regards lifespan. However, Eru is All-Knowing -- free will does not revoke that. If He allowed the lenghtening of the life-span in men, He knew what would come out of it. But the idea that Numenoreans were then "returned" to first-gen lifespan is intriguing. Could not the Valar do at least that? This would not be a "change in men's nature" -- or would it?

Tricky. And I'm confused about it now. I'll have something better to say about it when I read HoME X again.
 

Beleg

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I don't believe Myths Transformed has been attributed to any Elvish Scholar.

Christopher Tolkien defines Myths Transformed as,

In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology' (or legendarium as he called it) to accord with the imperatives of a greatly modified underlying conception. Some of these papers (there are notable exceptions) offer exceptional difficulty: fluidity of ideas, ambiguous and allusive expression, illegible passages.
 

Inderjit S

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I never thought of it by that angle. Eru only told the Valar that he would give "a new gift" to the Atani; were the Valar ignorant of death
No, I think they were aware of death. They had various wars, esp. the one in which they overthrew Melkor to deliver the Elves-they must have 'killed' many of his servants.


that Valar had no idea of what was death until they met Eärendil, in a gross exaggeration; or at least, not before the Sun had risen).
Many Elves died prior to that, whether to Umanayr of M-E or even Miriel and the subsequent Noldorin deaths in M-E. Unless you are talking about their perception of mannish death? Well prior to Earnedil's coming I am sure they are well aware of the nature of 'mortal man'. When Men were slain they went to the hall of Mandos briefly. Look at the story of Beren and Luthien-all the Valar were aware of Men's fate prior to them reaching Aman, and they (Or Manwe, as the case was and always is) consulted Eru as to what to do. They also were said to answer prayers in M-E, and Hurin comments to Melkor that maybe the Valar were watching over him, and the published Silmarillion tells us how Manwe+Varda would often look over M-E. But remeber, what Eru said to the Ainur upon entering Ea, some things would not be known to them.

Perhaps it means that death was a result of the refusal of the Voice, of Eru; I am rather atttracted to that.
A refusal of the voice? Eru encouraged them to think for themselves-their 'fall' came with their rejection of Eru himself-not his voice.

Well, it is exactly because of their eagerness and curiosity that they would be terrified at the idea of death, wouldn't they
But how could they be afraid of something they didn't know, at the time.

It comes to this: how authoritative is Myths Transformed? Is it the word of Tolkien about his world, or of an elven scholar
M.T is a work of Tolkien in which he 'challenges' some of his earlier ideas about the legendarium and makes up some new ideas or varies some things.

Basically, here is a run-down on the work of loremasters who wrote the Silmarillion and matters concerned with it:

Ainulindale; Manwe. Prose version prob. written by Rumil.

Valaquenta; Rumil. Pengolod?

Annals of Aman; Rumil

Annals of Beleriand & Tale of Years; Quennar Onotmio, borrwing works from Rumil and Pengolod. Onotmio primarily worked with the time records.

Narn i Hin Hurin; Dirhavael

Quenta Silmarillion; Numenorean--->Gondor.

Essays such as the Athrbaeth Finrod ah Andreth and Dangweth Pengolod are essays written from a Elven p.o.v, or by a Elven loremaster, wheras 'factual' essays such as Of Dwarves and Men Problem of Ros and Shibboleth of Feanor are Tolkiens ideas on certain aspects of his world. As Beleg's quote shows-Myths Transformed is a serious of 'essays' given in one form, split into differnt topics, such as Orks, Melkor, Men in Aman etc, all were chosen by C.T to be in that 'essay'. C.T also put things from certian essays in the Published Silmarillion for example he gained some info. on Dior from the Problem of Ros.

(BTW, if I am wrong in any of my assumptions as to who wrote what, tell me I haven't got the books with me so they are mainly from memory.)
 

Eriol

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Thanks, Inderjit! Very nice list of authors.

Yes, I was speaking of mannish death; and I was exaggerating to make a point, of course Mandos would always have known about it, and the others would have known about it much earlier than at Eärendil's time.

But in the end it means that the Valar, as much as the Elves, have no access to first-gen men's life history--they have no idea of their lifespan, age of first pregnancy, length of childhood, etc. I remembered Manwë and Varda keep a watch; but it does not seem a very close watch, for Morgoth always beats them to the prize :D. Perhaps they could not watch the first-gen men before Morgoth got to them.

Did they kill Melkor's servants? I think all of them were Ainur at the first wars -- are Ainur liable to be killed? Don't they rather "dissipate themselves" (Saruman, Sauron)?

As for the matter of first-gen men fearing death, even though they had never seen it, well, they would fear the idea of death nonetheless. Just as Elves fear the idea of the end of Arda, even though Arda is still around. For men, this would be even more fearsome -- for they are weaker in body and mind (and I assume this can be said even of first-gen men, for they met the Avari and saw the difference between Avari and themselves -- and that's another interesting question. Did the Avari meet men before Morgoth's messing? Hildórien was not an Avari-free area, was it?)

Of course, if we take the Sil at face value, they HAD to meet Avari before Morgoth's messing, for otherwise they'd have no language. Assuming the Voice, or Eru -- yes, Inderjit, I thought of them as the same, and so rejecting the Voice = rejecting Eru -- could speak to them without words; Eru is a very resourceful being :D

Another new angle... what were the Avari doing while Morgoth messed with men?
 

Beleg

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I believe the Aklabeth is said to have been written by Elendil himself.
Rumil also had part in writing of the Lhammas.
About the works of Rumil, Meadhros did an interesting case study which can be found in Guild of Scholars.




Another new angle... what were the Avari doing while Morgoth messed with men?
Now this is a strange Question Eriol, or the way you put it.
Avari would be offcourse emmersed in their own working, walking in the wilds and enjoying the raw beauty of Middle-Earth.
We also have to believe that Avari were scattered, meaning that they didn't walk along in united groups, instead they were probably scattered all along the NOrthern and North Eastern Middle-Earth, while Men I believe in the start would be present in groups, or in clans, and it would be easier for Morgoth's servants to track them.


As for the matter of first-gen men fearing death, even though they had never seen it, well, they would fear the idea of death nonetheless.
No they wouldn't, becuase they won't know what death is and the Avari would they meet probably also wont be able to tell them, since Avari wouldn't have witnessed death themselves, not in the form of slaying or demise. Sure they would have seen that their partners and companions disappear but they won't know about the death the way we know or was later known.
Besides Hildi [the men] awoke at Hildorien which was present at the south East corner of the Sea of Helcar, while Cuvinien was present at the North Eastern corner of Sea of Helcar.

Did they kill Melkor's servants? I think all of them were Ainur at the first wars -- are Ainur liable to be killed? Don't they rather "dissipate themselves" (Saruman, Sauron)?
The corporeal form of Ainur can be dismantled, but this is amply discussed in Myths Transformed.
Kill Melkor's servants? You have to agree that the first gen men wouldn't probably know a lot about the world, and their industry [if they had any] wouldn't certainly be impresive enough to prepare weapons with which they can attack or defend from the assualts of Melkorian elements.
 

Eriol

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Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Now this is a strange Question Eriol, or the way you put it.
Avari would be offcourse emmersed in their own working, walking in the wilds and enjoying the raw beauty of Middle-Earth.
We also have to believe that Avari were scattered, meaning that they didn't walk along in united groups, instead they were probably scattered all along the NOrthern and North Eastern Middle-Earth, while Men I believe in the start would be present in groups, or in clans, and it would be easier for Morgoth's servants to track them.
The Avari taught language to Men, right? I think that can be taken as a fact since the Eldar found many similarities between Mannish tongues and theirs. It was not taught by Morgoth's servants.

This means that the Avari met Men before Morgoth -- else Morgoth could not have spoken with them.

And this means that while Morgoth was messing with them the Avari leave the picture. Why? Would not Men wonder about the whereabouts of their teachers? Remember, we are not talking about "men after Morgoth's messing", estranged from Elves; we are talking about "men during Morgoth's messing", who were still friends with the Avari. Wouldn't the Avari warn about Morgoth? They knew about him, and they knew he was bad (didn't they "refuse the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth alike"?).

No they wouldn't, becuase they won't know what death is and the Avari would they meet probably also wont be able to tell them, since Avari wouldn't have witnessed death themselves, not in the form of slaying or demise. Sure they would have seen that their partners and companions disappear but they won't know about the death the way we know or was later known.
We are assuming an immortal or quasi-immortal mankind here, right? Well, the more immortal they are, the more they would fear oblivion. Are you saying that they could not create the concept of oblivion? I don't know why. The Elves have a clear concept of oblivion, though none ever died. It need not be witnessed to be imagined.

Kill Melkor's servants? You have to agree that the first gen men wouldn't probably know a lot about the world, and their industry [if they had any] wouldn't certainly be impresive enough to prepare weapons with which they can attack or defend from the assualts of Melkorian elements.
This comment of mine was referring to Inderjit's statement that the Valar would know about death (TRUE death) because they must have killed many of Morgoth's servants in the first wars. I think that this does not follow, since an Ainur can't TRULY die.
 

Beleg

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The Avari taught language to Men, right?
Agreed.

This means that the Avari met Men before Morgoth -- else Morgoth could not have spoken with them.
The eldar only knew of the point-of-view of the Edain or of the Swarthy house of Bor and Ulfang; they didnt knew about the other scatered clans and houses of men, so It is just possible that Melkor's survents did interact with some of the men before the Avari did.

Would not Men wonder about the whereabouts of their teachers?
Of the Avari? It is possible they would have asked them, but the Avari could only tell and explain [if they choose to do so] precious little that was told to them at Cuvinen by Orome or explained by the three lords, Finwe, Elwe etc.


Remember, we are not talking about "men after Morgoth's messing", estranged from Elves; we are talking about "men during Morgoth's messing", who were still friends with the Avari.
You are here taking it is a rule that Avari were the first to contact the men; while I don't wholly agree with this; the servants of Morgoth with whom branches and clan of Men could have interacted might have been filled with lies concerning Avari.



They knew about him, and they knew he was bad (didn't they "refuse the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth alike"?).
That's the men we are talking about; and this Quote comes up at a point of time, when the First age is almost about to end, before the Final Battle of Beleriand, and here as you are saying, we are talking about the First Gen Men. [Nice term by the way Inder:)]

Avari didn't knew Melkor Morgoth from his known name, they just heard rumors of him and anticipated him as the Master who controlled all the evil beasts and things that roamed Middle-Earth at that time.
 

Eriol

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You are here taking it is a rule that Avari were the first to contact the men; while I don't wholly agree with this; the servants of Morgoth with whom branches and clan of Men could have interacted might have been filled with lies concerning Avari.
Well, I'm talking mostly about Andreth's ancestors; by the linguistic evidence, I think it is safe to say that they met Avari before Melkor. And they had a long time alone with them before meeting Melkor -- for learning language is not something you do in a week.

I think the "refusing the summons of everybody" :D was mentioned at the Great March time, when the Avari decided to not follow Oromë; and they would have known that the "bad things" were from Morgoth, since Men knew that (they were travelling to the West to escape Morgoth). I don't think we can assume that Avari did not know Morgoth or his evil just because we don't have records of it. It seems a pretty obvious thing to most of Arda's inhabitants :).

Gosh, this thread came a long way from Numenorean lifespan :).

The "dissonant note" is how Morgoth can show himself in a good light to Men, and NOT to the Avari. He appears as a beautiful and powerful being to Men, who were taught by the Avari; what were the Avari doing in the meantime?

(a) they were scared and hidden, since they knew Morgoth; but if it was so, when Morgoth left they would warn Men about it.

(b) they were fooled just as men; but then they would not "refuse the summons of Morgoth".
 

Beleg

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I think the "refusing the summons of everybody" was mentioned at the Great March time, when the Avari decided to not follow Oromë; and they would have known that the "bad things" were from Morgoth, since Men knew that (they were travelling to the West to escape Morgoth). I don't think we can assume that Avari did not know Morgoth or his evil just because we don't have records of it. It seems a pretty obvious thing to most of Arda's inhabitants


In the Great Battle when at last Morgoth was overthrown and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain alone of the kindreds of Men fought for the Valar, whereas many others fought for Morgoth. And after the victory of the Lords of the West those of the evil Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east, where many of their race were still wandering in the unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth
AKALLABÊTH, Silmarillion

So I am sorry Eriol, but we aren't talking about the Elves here.


The "dissonant note" is how Morgoth can show himself in a good light to Men, and NOT to the Avari. He appears as a beautiful and powerful being to Men, who were taught by the Avari; what were the Avari doing in the meantime?
What do you think the Avari could do? What do you think they should have done?
They could have done nothing except to explain their fears and suspisions about Morgoth and tell the very little that they had acquired in Cuviernen, but that would seem like a tale of faroffdays, when Morgoth's servants visited them in corporeal forms and were real, while Avari talked of things they themselves weren't sure about.
Who would you believe?
Avari, who told far off tales, who in the gloomy atmosphere of that time while Middle-Earth was virtually dominated by Morgoth's Servants would seem far-fetched and hardly real, and would be atoned only as sweet dreams, which some [Those who were too optimistic and perhaps had more contact with Avari] might follow but the greater part won't believe them.


(b) they were fooled just as men; but then they would not "refuse the summons of Morgoth".
Are you sure of your words here, perhaps you have the wrong timeline in mind....

(a) they were scared and hidden, since they knew Morgoth; but if it was so, when Morgoth left they would warn Men about it.
I refuse to believe they knew Morgoth as Morgoth or knew about his origin or the extant of his power, since in the Silmarillion and Anals of Aman we are told how Elves were scared while Valar fought with Melkor, but It seems that no text touches on wether the entire known history of Morgoth was revealed to the Elves at Kuvinen by Orome; but probably it wasn't.
If I were a man, and was a Neutral, two people visit me,
One the greatest being of Ea, and second some powerless and seemingly lost elves; whose tale I would rather believe in?
Surely with Masters of disguise and cunning mixed in honey-voiced rewards like Sauron, it would be very easy for the men to fall in Melkor's trap.
And then you also have to understand that not all Avari would adherent believers of the power of Valar or their presence, since they had refused the summons.
 

Inderjit S

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QUOTE]Perhaps they could not watch the first-gen men before Morgoth got to them.[/QUOTE]

Well the Valar didn't know where Men would awaken and they only found Elves by 'luck' as it would seem in one of Orome's forays to M-E. But as is told in Of Men Ulmo came in attempted to 'guide them' via messages in streams and other water sources, but they could not understand. Of course one notices a contradiction here. We are working with two different versions of men's history. The one told in the Published Silmarillion is when Men awoke about the time of the supposed first rising of the Sun+Moon. Tolkien later dismisses this is a mannish myth, them blending their own ideas with Elvish legends. So when working with the Athrabeth we are working with the reformed view of the legendarium-where Men awoke close to the awakening of the Elves, and the Sun and Moon had existed since Arda itself. Of course we cannot apply the theory that Ulmo came knew about the first-gen men to the latter legendarium, so one can assume that no Valar knew about their awakening. But they knew about their fall.

Did the Avari meet men before Morgoth's messing? Hildórien was not an Avari-free area, was it?)
I Don’t know. of Dwarves and Men tells us that some of the mannish tongues were of Dwarven origin. The Easterling tongues were especially noted for their similarity to the Dwarvish tongue. Annals of Aman tells is that they first met the Elves of Beleriand in V.Y 1250, yet this is a contradiction, of sorts, this is a reference to the 'great dwarves', petty-Dwarves had exited in Beleriand for a long time. Yet info. given in Quendi and Eldar which claims that Dwarves claimed to be in Beleriand before any of the Eldar, and some Sindar, when they first entered were often assaulted by Petty-Dwarves. Petty-Dwarves were cast off's from various Dwarvish houses, though one can assume that the Petty-Dwarves of Beleriand were cast off's of the close Dwarvish houses, the Firebeards, Broadbeams and maybe even the Longbeards. So it is evident that Dwarves too woke close to Elves of Dwarves and Men says they claim to be the 'second-born', and they may have come into contact with Men before Avari, though not all of these were friendly, Andróg says to Mim that he has heard bad tales from his ancestors of Dwarves of the East and indeed the two far-eastern Dwarvish mansions turned to Melko-worship, though we don’t know when they did.

The Nandor knew of Men and passed on stories to the Sindar.

The Sindar did not even know of their existence, until the coming of the Nandor; and these brought only rumour of a strange people (whom they had not themselves seen) wandering in the lands of the East beyond the Hithaeglir. From these uncertain tales the Sindar concluded that the 'strange people' were either some diminished race of the Avari, or else related to Orcs, creatures of Melkor, bred in mockery of the true Quendi. But the Ñoldor had already heard of Men in Aman. Their knowledge came in the first place from Melkor and was perverted by his malice, but before the Exile those who would listen had learned more of the truth from the Valar, and they knew that the newcomers were akin to themselves, being also Children of Ilúvatar, though differing in gifts and fate.
Quendi and Eldar

But Men claim that;

The first Elves that Men met in the world were Avari, some of whom were friendly to them, but the most avoided them or were hostile (according to the tales of Men). What names Men and Elves gave to one another in those remote days, of which little was remembered when the Loremasters in Beleriand made the acquaintance of the After-born, there is now no record.
This seems to fit in with the hostile nature of some of the Avari, mainly the Tatyarin Avari. But obviosuly some mingled with Men. But wait, the citation says that Men too gave names to Elves when they first met-so they must have had a language of their own. How did they understand Melkor?

Again we come across a interesting idea. The quote I I have provided says;

"but before the Exile those who would listen had learned more of the truth from the Valar, and they knew that the newcomers were akin to themselves, being also Children of Ilúvatar, though differing in gifts and fate."

So the Valar TOLD the Elves about the differing 'fates' of Men.

BUT, later down the page we read;

Of death, as suffered by Men, the Elves knew nothing until they came into close association with the Atani
So even though the Valar told them about the different fate of Men, they didn't know about the way in which Men died? Maybe the valar were ignorant of it too, as you said, or maybe it was just incomprehensible to Elves beforehand.

Did they kill Melkor's servants? I think all of them were Ainur at the first wars -- are Ainur liable to be killed
All Ainur? Some may have been Beasts or Beats mated with Maia or Maia in the shape of Orks or other evil things. Annals of Aman tells us how the Valerian forces met a host of Balrogs. A host is a considerable number. Yet in one of his letters J.R.R latter says that there were only 7 Balrogs ever....so what exactly did they fight?

while Men I believe in the start would be present in groups, or in clans, and it would be easier for Morgoth's servants to track
Or the other way round.

The Atani and their kin were the descendants of peoples who in the Dark Ages had resisted Morgoth or had renounced him, and had wandered ever westward from their homes far away in the East seeking the Great Sea, of which distant rumour had reached them. They did not know that Morgoth himself had left Middle-earth; for they were ever at war with the vile things that he had bred, and especially with Men who had made him their God and believed that they could render him no more pleasing service than to destroy the 'renegades' with every kind of cruelty. It was in the North of Middle-earth, it would seem, that the 'renegades' survived in sufficient numbers to maintain their independence as brave and hardy peoples; but of their past they preserved only legends, and their oral histories reached no further back than a few generations of Men.
Of Dwarves and Men

Of Dwarves and Men also describes a large settlement of Men by the Sea of Rhun.
 

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