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Númenórean long lifespan - A mistake?

Beleg

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So it is evident that Dwarves too woke close to Elves
The two known places of awakening of Dwarves are at Ered Luin and Mount Gundabad, and the other two are said to be at the same distance east as the two have between them, so probably they were also somewhere around Inland Sea of Helcar, possibly in the Mountains that lay NorthEast and east of the sea.
Nice post Inderjit by the way, although your last Quote still doesn't clear your claim about the 'other way round' thingy.
 

Eriol

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Man, I love this thread :D

Yes, Beleg, I was mixing up my quotes. :eek: But I still think that the Avari fled from Morgoth at the time of the Great March -- perhaps only with a different wording. The problem is not as clear-cut as it seems; Men were not presented to the Great Melkor and to the Avari simultaneously. In your scenario, if the "powerless and seemingly lost" elves had taught you ALL you know, including your language; and if they came right after Melkor left and said in the strongest words that this guy means trouble, and that we know him, he's bad, he's behind the bad stuff going on around here -- would it be so easy for Men to dismiss them? I wonder.

Remember, ALL men worshipped Morgoth. All of them. Wouldn't the Avari be a bit concerned with that, enough to try to prevent it? Would not this "Avari attempt", even if failed, be registered in the Mannish tales? "I told you so" is a powerful motif :D. The Avari would indulge in that after the Fall, I think. The lack of any mention of the Avari in the Athrabeth is disturbing, to me.

It is not necessary that the Avari like the Valar for this observation to be true; they must simply know Morgoth. Another way to look at it is this -- did Melkor never attempt to "mess" with the Avari? Why not? I think it is unlikely. I think he probably tried to make the same thing he would later make with men, unsuccessfully, since the Avari were fiercely independent; and this previous attempts of Morgoth would not be forgotten. I don't think it is possible for the Avari to live in Arda and not be tempted by Morgoth or a servant at some moment (I'm talking about temptation, not abduction).

Great post Inderjit! It seems that "some men" were taught by Dwarves... but does that mean that men appeared in different groups? Or were these groups a result of history, i.e., something that happened AFTER Morgoth's messing? This is odd. Either men appeared simultaneously in different spots; or they appeared in the same place, and were tempted (as a race) by Morgoth in the same place. But how could Morgoth tempt them before they had a language? And how could they have different languages if they were still only one population?
 

Beleg

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The problem is not as clear-cut as it seems; Men were not presented to the Great Melkor and to the Avari simultaneously. In your scenario, if the "powerless and seemingly lost" elves had taught you ALL you know, including your language; and if they came right after Melkor left and said in the strongest words that this guy means trouble, and that we know him, he's bad, he's behind the bad stuff going on around here -- would it be so easy for Men to dismiss them? I wonder.
You seem to present a dramatic version of what I said, or what was the essence of my post.
I think my ideas are clear on this point.
But before I elaborate let us see a tiny bit about the habbits of Avari,

Quendi and Eldar tells us,

but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves
We establish that Avari are secretive, untrustworthy and dwell in hidden places.
Now you seem to have overlooked a very important Quote,

Dwarves and Men
The first Elves that Men met in the world were Avari, some of whom were friendly to them, but the most avoided them or were hostile (according to the tales of Men).
So we establish that Most Avari avoided them, and some were even hostile to men.
Now, hostility would also mean attacking Men, and In the later case, Men would need to defend themselves from the hostile Avari, and by the hostiless of some, the whole race would have bear the burnt, since Men will automatically blame the whole clan, and not the select hostile group as people to be blamed. This would surely create some kind of enemity between the two races, and would hamper the close ties that might be created between the two races.
The hostileness of the Avari is a major fact too.
Another point is the inherent secretiveness of the Avari.
Now, common supposition is that when the puppets of Morgoth will come, the Avari would hide, and being weary of Morgoth and despising the dark power's acts, and also being untrustful would suspect the Men of really joining forces with Morgoth and accepting his terms, when in reality they didn't do it.
Thus, coupled with the first point would also prove as a hinderance in the Avari-Men ties.

You speak of Avari teaching Men their language,
You refuse to believe that anyone else then Avari could have taught Men their language,

We have three parties that have been mentioned as possible teachers of Language to Men.

1. Avari
2. Morgothian Elements
3. Dwarves.

1. Avari: It is established that they taught men most of their language. For supplementing my claim I'll present this Quote from Quenta Silmarillion,

It is said also that these Men had long had dealings with the Dark Elves east of the mountains, and from them had learned much of their speech;
Of the Coming of Men Into the West

Notice the emphasis on Much. Therefore from the general vagueness of this Quote, it is possible to interpret that there were other elements from which Men could have learnt their speech.

2. Morgothian Elements: It is a proven fact that Morgoth was able to sccucumb some of the Men to his cause. For doing this he and his puppets need to have made contact with them.
This is supplemented with the following Quotes from,
Of Men, Quenta Silmarillion
But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildórien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War
It is possible that Morgoth and Morgothian elements came in contact with Some of the men before they met Avari and Dwarves. Now Morgoth had people like Sauron who could devise a tongue like blackspeech, so It isn't entirely immpossible that Morgothian elements and even Morgoth himself taught some of the men of his brood, their speech.

3. Dwarves: Now this is a different matter altogather.
About the secrecy concerning their speech Khadul, It is said in
Of Dwarves and Men
The Dwarves were in many ways a special case. They had an ancient language of their own which they prized highly; and even when, as among the Longbeard Dwarves of the West, it had ceased to be their native tongue and had become a 'book-language', it was carefully preserved and taught to all their children at an early age. It thus served as a lingua franca between all Dwarves of all kinds; but it was also a written language used in all important histories and lore, and in recording any matters not intended to be read by other people
Thus we establish Dwarves were very secretive about it, as was to be expected, considering the Situation given In LOTR main, and Appendix D.

Yet immediately after comes a Quote which tells us something,

This Khuzdul (as they called it), partly because of their native secretiveness, and partly because of its inherent difficulty, was seldom learned by those of other race.
Now this Quote tells us in no uncertain terms that Only few people ever had been able to learn Khazadul due to its inherent difficulty and a safe bet is many if not most of them would be elves. And since Dwarves were bad linguists, It was not possible for them to prepare a seperate tongue for Men.
Thus, the possibility of Dwarves teaching Men their tongue can be ruled out on this account.
Although It is more then possible that Dwarves assisted men in other things. They specially would be the first people, who might supply men with adequete weaponary and other things of Metal, as is told in Dwarves and Men

Remember, ALL men worshipped Morgoth. All of them. Wouldn't the Avari be a bit concerned with that, enough to try to prevent it?
I have asked before, and haven't been answered, where does it say all men?
certainly the Mannish belief of Andreth negates this theory.

Wouldn't the Avari be a bit concerned with that, enough to try to prevent it?
They would be concerned, but only a small number of them and this small number might have other problems to as alluded to earlier.


It is not necessary that the Avari like the Valar for this observation to be true; they must simply know Morgoth. Another way to look at it is this -- did Melkor never attempt to "mess" with the Avari?
I believe he did.
Yet this quote in Quendi and Eldar
No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands:
Shows to us that no elf would accept Morgoth as their dark lord willingly, even though he might have peverted some of the Avari.
And this also implies that Morgoth did try to mess with the Avari too, just like any other living creature on which he can get his hands on.
I don't think it is possible for the Avari to live in Arda and not be tempted by Morgoth or a servant at some moment
They couldn't be tempted because they would willingly not serve him ever.
 

Eriol

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Hmm... I think you're putting a lot of emphasis on that "much" in the quote about the Avari teaching language to men. I think that if Morgothian elements (another nice word) had taught men some language, it would be noticeable by the Eldar (masters of language) when they met Men.

However, I don't think that Morgoth devised a new language (unlike Sauron and Black Speech); therefore perhaps Morgothian elements taught men what is a subdivision of Elvish. And this would explain a lot.

Yes, it seems established that Avari-Men friendship is not established :D.

As for the worship of ALL men, it is right there on the Athrabeth -- the beliefs of Andreth confirm the theory. They worshipped Morgoth, and then they repented.

"They could not be tempted because they will not willingly serve Morgoth" - I was referring to the tempter, not to the temptees :D. I think Morgoth tempted them; whether they would fall to the temptation or not it's up to them. I think they did not (as your quotes show); but this means that they would be acquainted with Morgoth and they would fear very much that men could become Morgoth's slaves. Unless they were so dumb as to assume that Men had the same willpower as they; but this is so obivously false to most Elves that it seems odd.
 

Inderjit S

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First off, let me present some comments, that I found upon my re-reading of the Athrabeth, first of all there is this startling revelation:


Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Númenórean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God). In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Númenórean tradition, for it makes Andreth say: This is the Tale that Adanel of the House of Hador told to me. The Númenóreans were largely, and their non-Elvish traditions mainly, derived from the People of Marach, of whom the House of Hador were the chieftains. The legend bears certain resemblances to the Númenórean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Númenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth. [Added note: Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise.]
So now we have this bombshell dropped on us! The Athrabeth is a Númenórean tale, which as been edited to reflect their own views!

Also on the language;

We understood the Voice in our hearts, though we had no words yet. Then the desire for words awoke in us, and we began to make them. But we were few, and the world was wide and strange. Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of words was slow.
Tale of Adanel

So, Men had started making words, before Morgoth had came. Remember, Morgoth came to them in the form of a man, a very great one at that-but a man. He offered them the possibility to be as great as him. But they must have somehow understood what he was saying, so he must have somehow known their language. Maybe he had been watching over them?

The two known places of awakening of Dwarves are at Ered Luin and Mount Gundabad, and the other two are said to be at the same distance east as the two have between them, so probably they were also somewhere around Inland Sea of Helcar, possibly in the Mountains that lay NorthEast and east of the sea.
I wasn't speaking geographically, I was speaking time-line wise, they awoke close to WHEN the Elves awoke, not WHERE.

Nice post Inderjit by the way
Great post Inderjit
Thank you! :D Like to say the same to the both of you, great post/s and a great thread! (Though I must admit Eriol's insistence on Melkor changing Men's nature did annoy me a trifle bit;) )

Quote still doesn't clear your claim about the 'other way round' thingy.
Just that Men hunted Melkor servants as well as them hunting Men.

On Eriol's idea on Melkor capturing, converting Avari etc. Well, he sometimes captured ELVES and turned them into 'spies' of sort, and they were often shunned by relatives-so I think he prolly captured more Noldor and Sindar then Avari.

Also, this interesting comment from the Problem of Ros:

He [Thingol] had small love for the Northern Sindar who had in regions near to Angband come under the dominion of Morgoth, and were accused of sometimes entering his service and providing him with spies. The Sindarin used by the Sons of Fëanor also was of the Northern dialect; and they were hated in Doriath
 
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Eriol

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The possiblity, Inderjit, the possibility that Melkor changed Men's nature... and don't blame me, blame Andreth :D. That's her take on the story. I just did not think (and still don't think) that her lore should be automatically discarded because it was not in agreement with the Eldar or the Valar. Andreth was a source just as good as them regarding men's origins; better in some respects, worse in others.

As for the other "bombshells", yes, they are bombshells... but I still wonder about "the dog that did not bark", the Avari. Did you see any reference to them in the Athrabeth in your recent reading?

As for your last quote -- what could you expect from the Sons of Fëanor? Sure, they would use the dialect that angered Thingol...

:D
 

Beleg

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He [Thingol] had small love for the Northern Sindar who had in regions near to Angband come under the dominion of Morgoth, and were accused of sometimes entering his service and providing him with spies. The Sindarin used by the Sons of Fëanor also was of the Northern dialect; and they were hated in Doriath
But....What about the fact that no Elf served Melkor willingly?
Doesn't it seem to be in contradiction to this statement? Or do you think Elves exagurated while writing about themselves?


Edit: Thanks Inder.
 
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Inderjit S

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but I still wonder about "the dog that did not bark", the Avari. Did you see any reference to them in the Athrabeth in your recent reading
Well I decided to do my own 'mini-research' on the Avari, a.l.a Beleg, with info from both in and out of the Athrabeth. Now, Beleg says;

We establish that Avari are secretive, untrustworthy and dwell in hidden places.
But I think that was more of a reference to the Tatyarin Avari. The Tatyarin Avari were from the Second Clan who later became the Noldor. The Nelyarin Avari, who later became the Teleri were ore friendly, and few of them entered Beleriand, whilst most of the Avari of Beleriand were of the Tatyarin clan, and they disliked the Eldar. So I think they may have received some friendship from the Avari, though this primarily, would have been from the Nelyarin Avari.

Now Felagund comments;

Not so, you will say. Yet long ere ye came to this land, ye met other folk of the Quendi, and by some were befriended
So it is evident that he had heard of mannish meetings with Avari beforehand. I vaguely remember Andreth commenting on a certain idea, or trait that was shared amongst all Elves, Avari and Eldar. Yet where did these Men meet these Avari, one wonders? The Nandor claim to heard stories about men, but they had never seen them. It is plain that these stories came from Avari. Avari were said, particularly of the Nelyarin tribes, to mix in with the Sindarin, Silvan and Nandor groups, around Anduin. This can later be seen in Thranduil's realm where there may have been a large population of Avarin Elves or Elves who were descendant from Avarin Elves along with the original Silvanic population. Thranduil's people wanted to stay in M-E anyway, as is told in Unfinished Tales to revert back to the simple life of the Elves, this matched the aims of the Avari. Anyway, there is a mentioning in The Hobbit of Thranduil receiving wine from their kinsfolk down south. Lothlorien is out the of the question, since Celeborn comments to Legolas that they have lost contact with their northern kindred for too long. (Though the fact that it was because of him and his wife's intrusions that the Silvanic population of Mirkwood moved further north, is somewhat ironic.) So maybe there was a Elven realm further south. Now the Forest river, leads to the River Celduin which leads to the River Carnen which eventually winds it's way to the Sea of Rhun. Now cast your mind back to the Lay of Leithian in which the supposedly Elvish realm of Dorwinion is mentioned. Now, couldn't Dorwinion be the Elvish realm in the south? Couldn't it be on the Sea of Rhun? Of Dwarves and Men tells us of the Mannish settlement on the Sea of Rhun, so they may have intermingled there. It would have been a perfect place to pass on stories to the Nandor/Silvan Elves of the Vale of Anduin, as it isn't too far from the Vale of Anduin and those stories eventually reached Sindarin ears.

As for the worship of ALL men, it is right there on the Athrabeth -- the beliefs of Andreth confirm the theory. They worshipped Morgoth, and then they repented
Are you sure?

Andreth says that after a while Melkor came back and said;

'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.'
This was the first time that Melkor appeared in a domineering and unfriendly form to them. They thought he was their friend beforehand, but he had still warned them against the voice, which he claimed to be the 'dark' yet some still insisted on listening to it.

After being forced to be subservient to him, Andreth says:

'Now,' he said, 'come forth any who still listen to the Voice!'
There were some, but for fear they remained still and said naught. 'Then bow before Me and acknowledge Me!' he said. And all bowed to the ground before him, saying: 'Thou art the One Great, and we are Thine
So we can see that some still worshipped Eru, but they were too scared to come forward and admit it. So not all men worshipped him. We can see a continuation of this later on in the tale

Then there arose some among us who said openly in their despair: 'Now we know at last who lied, and who desired to devour us. Not the first Voice. It is the Master that we have taken who is the Darkness; and he did not come forth from it, as he said, but he dwells in it. We will serve him no longer! He is our Enemy
So we can see a rebellion of men developing who had , maybe always worshipped Eru and only now when the lot of men was low admitted to their latent desires. But look at the reaction;

Then in fear lest he should hear them and punish us all, we slew them, if we could; and those that fled we hunted; and if any were caught, our masters, his friends, commanded that they should be taken to the House and there done to death by fire. That pleased him greatly, his friends said; and indeed for a while it seemed that our afflictions were lightened.
Hm..not the best course of actions by men now? But;

But it is told that there were a few that escaped us, and went away into far countries, fleeing from the shadow. Yet they did not escape from the anger of the Voice; for they had built the House and bowed down in it. And they came at last to the land's end and the shores of the impassable water; and behold! the Enemy was there before them.
This is undoubtley a reference to the Atani. So there was a minority who worshipped Eru still, but they were oppressed by the majority and punished by Eru nonetheless for bowing to the Melkor.

As for your last quote -- what could you expect from the Sons of Fëanor? Sure, they would use the dialect that angered Thingol...
Yes, but not out of spite maybe. They had no contact with Doriath for a long time-so how could they know what angered Thingol? And all the Noldor used Sindarin, after the Dagor Aglareb, and the Feanorians reisded in the north-eastern part of Beleriand, or thereabouts (Apart from Amrod who dwelt in Estolad) and so they were bound to speak the tounge that was commonly spoken there which would have been Northern Sindarin since the primary Sindarin population would have been of the Northern Sindar. ;)
 

Inderjit S

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But....What about the fact that no Elf served Melkor willingly? and that's given in Quendi and Eldar, which is an essay written by Tolkien, not some Elvish loremaster.
Quendi and Eldar is written by Pengolod. The source I have citied The Problem of Ros is written by Tolkien where he is wondering what Elros's name meant, or which it was derived from.
 

Eriol

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The reference to the Sons of Fëanor was more in the spirit of "sure, they would not bother to learn the other dialect just to please that Dark Elf"

:D

And your quote is clear, Inderjit: And all bowed before him, saying: 'Thou are the One Great, and we are Thine'. That was exactly the passage I remembered; and it shows, I think, that all men -- ALL -- worshipped Morgoth. When they said these fateful words, there can be no doubt that they had abandoned the Voice; out of fear, perhaps, but no less because of that. They had forsaken Eru.

Dorwinion, in my mind, was always what you just described -- an elvish realm close to Rhûn with good wineyards :D.
 

Beleg

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Now cast your mind back to the Lay of Leithian in which the supposedly Elvish realm of Dorwinion is mentioned. Now, couldn't Dorwinion be the Elvish realm in the south?
And It is just possible that the King Bladthorin [sp?] mentioned in The Hobbit was the King of Dorwinion??
Nice conjecture.

Very interesting and good post by the way Inderjit.

Yes, but not out of spite maybe. They had no contact with Doriath for a long time-so how could they know what angered Thingol?
It is possible that the Children of Finarfin, who met with Thingol before the Great feast at Irvin was given, might have told of this hate to the sons of Feanor?
But this is just a way of showing there is probability; I don't think this was the reason though.
I agree more with your assertment, although I'd would be interesting to examine the places in the Northern Beleriand where Elves could live.
There were obviously some elves at Mithrim, as they are Mentioned in the Tale of Tuor, I can recall that some Elves also lived in the High Lands of Dorthonion and some grey elves probably also lived at Neverest.
But there is no mention of settlement in North-Eastern Beleriend before the arrival of the Sons of Feanor.
Do you think Grey Elves lived at any other place also? [in the northern Region]

Do you think the Quotes provided by you concerning Melkor and Men are in accord with Silmarillion and Grey Annals?
The circumstances in them certainly won't allow for big hoards, [With people of Marach as big as upto 6 adult men with a lot more in the Vales of Auduin and Eriador] to escape Morgoth Worship.
 

Beleg

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And your quote is clear, Inderjit: And all bowed before him, saying: 'Thou are the One Great, and we are Thine'. That was exactly the passage I remembered; and it shows, I think, that all men -- ALL -- worshipped Morgoth. When they said these fateful words, there can be no doubt that they had abandoned the Voice; out of fear, perhaps, but no less because of that. They had forsaken Eru.
'Now,' he said, 'come forth any who still listen to the Voice!'There were some, but for fear they remained still and said naught. 'Then bow before Me and acknowledge Me!' he said. And all bowed to the ground before him, saying: 'Thou art the One Great, and we are Thine
Well, the hearts of all men weren't turned, as said in the quote, some hearked to the supposed Darkness but for the fear of Melkor that gripped them at the moment, they obeyed him, but this doesn't necessasarily mean that they had wholey forgetten the first voice.
 

Inderjit S

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Just like to go back to the speculations on Elvish authors of texts for a minute. Beleg states, that Myths Transformed was not written by a Elven loremaster. True-for the most part. In the 'preface' to Quendi and Eldar C.T tells us he took some of the info. on Ork's origins into Myths Transformed. So Orks X was written by Pengolod, the author of Quendi and Eldar and not a 'Tolkien' written source but one from the p.o.v of a Eldarin loremaster, but it shouldn't be discounted, because of that, Pengolod was a very wise Elf, who unlike Rumil had some experience of M-E and Ork's, being born in Nevrast.


Also on Dorwinion, Late Writings: Cirdan (HoME 12) tells us;

Before ever they came to Beleriand the Teleri had developed a craft of boat-making; first as rafts, and soon as light boats with paddles made in imitation of the water-birds upon the lakes near their first homes, and later on the Great Journey in crossing rivers, or especially during their long tarrying on the shores of the 'Sea of Rhûn', where their ships became larger and stronger. But in all this work Círdan had ever been the foremost and most inventive and skilful
So, one can assume that the 'Avari' of Dorwinion may have been a group of Elves, that had remained there after the Teleri had departed for Aman. Remember, Of the Coming of the Elves tells us how some got lost or departed on the way there, and that the Teleri often lagged behind the Vanyar and Noldor. So one can see that if some Elves remained on the Sea of Rhun, it would've been a precursor of sorts to the Lenwe's departure with a group of Teleri, when they reach Anduin. Also, the Sea of Rhun would have undoubtley been on the road to their journey, since it was the north-western tip of the no extinct Sea of Helkar, and there they would have gone northwards to Mirkwood and passed through that to Anduin, Misty Mountains etc, as this quote from Annals of Aman shows

And it came to pass that after ten Years of journeying in this manner (which is to say in such a time as we now should reckon well nigh a century of our years) the Eldar passed through a forest, and came to a great river, wider and broader than any that they yet had seen, and beyond it were mountains whose sharp horns seemed to pierce the realm of the stars.
And your quote is clear, Inderjit: And all bowed before him, saying: 'Thou are the One Great, and we are Thine'. That was exactly the passage I remembered; and it shows, I think, that all men -- ALL -- worshipped Morgoth. When they said these fateful words, there can be no doubt that they had abandoned the Voice; out of fear, perhaps, but no less because of that. They had forsaken Eru
No, you must remember---some had not forsaken the voice, if they all had then all men were doomed, some remained good, but due to their fear of Melkor had to feign subservience. It's like being someone in Stalinist Russia, you would have to feign support for Stalin in order to live, though some may have disliked or opposed Stalin in secret.

It is possible that the Children of Finarfin, who met with Thingol before the Great feast at Irvin was given, might have told of this hate to the sons of Feanor
Only Maedhros and Maglor were present at the Mereth Aderthad.

The joy of the feast was long remember in latter days of sorrow....thither came many chieftains and people of Fingolfin and Finrod; and the sons of Feanor Maedhros and Maglor
The four other sons of Feanor seemingly weren't present. I don’t know why the would have told Maedhros and Maglor, but they may have, as this was the first time that Sindarin was by and large spoken. But we were in peaceful times here, why/how would Melkor capture Elves or them go to Angband, unless it was in the earlier wars of the stars, maybe, and anyhow, since Northern Sindar were present many would have been/felt insulted, if this was said.

although I'd would be interesting to examine the places in the Northern Beleriand where Elves could live.
Now in his wide realm many Elves wandered free in the wild; or dwelt at peace in kindred’s far sundered, and only at Menegroth, and along the Falas in the country of the mariners, were there numerous peoples
Of the Sindar; Published Silmarillion

Now there were scattered homesteads dotted around Beleriand seemingly with the only 'big' populations being the Falthrim, in Falas (Who, if we want to be pendant and technical not real 'Sindar', they claimed to be Teleri still, as this quote shows)

But Círdan and his people remained in many ways distinct from the rest of the Sindar. They retained the old name Teleri (in later Sindarin form Teleri, or Telerrim) and remained in many ways a separate folk, speaking even in later days a more archaic language. The Ñoldor called them the Falmari, 'wave-folk', and the other Sindar Falathrim 'people of the foaming shore'.
Late Writings: Cirdan (HoME 12)

From what we know of where the Sindar preferred to live, they preferred woods, which would have made the Hills of Himring, which are ascribed as

The chief citadel of Maedhros was upon the hill of Himring, the Ever-cold, and that was wide-shouldered and bare of trees
Of Beleriand and It's Realms; Published Silmarillion

So, not ideal living conditions for the Sindar, to say the least.

In fact, N-E Beleriand doesn't seem to be too woody, and Tolkien states that many went southwards to the greenwoods were Amrod dwelt. (Not Amras since he was dead;) ) So it wouldn't have been ideal for the Sindar to dwell in.

There were obviously some elves at Mithrim, as they are Mentioned in the Tale of Tuor, I can recall that some Elves also lived in the High Lands of Dorthonion and some grey elves probably also lived at Neverest.
Of the Noldor in Beleriand tells us how a huge host of the Sindar went with the Noldor to Gondolin. These Sindar would have been from Nevrast. Also, on Sindar in Hithlum:

Lake Mithrim, meaning originally 'Lake of the Mithrim'. Mithrim was a name given to them by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North. It was probably because the Ñoldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language
Quendi and Eldar; HoME 11

So there were some 'Northern Sindar' in Hithlum. Maybe some went east with the Sons of Feanor? Or maybe some of the refugees of Dorthinion after the Dagor Bragollach, went to Himring, which was situated close to Dorthinion, and where many Elves were said to have gone, as a safe-haven of sorts.

Whilst
The circumstances in them certainly won't allow for big hoards, [With people of Marach as big as upto 6 adult men with a lot more in the Vales of Auduin and Eriador] to escape Morgoth Worship
I don’t understand what you mean. Can you please elaborate?
:( :confused:

Also, on Dwarvish elements being found in Mannish tongues, Pengolod states:

Upon this Pengolodh comments: He knew not of Men or of Dwarves. But we who have dwelt among Men know that (strange though that seems to some) the Valar love them no less. And for my part I perceive a likeness no less, or indeed greater, between the Valarin and the tongues of Men, notably the language of the Dúnedain and of the Children of Marach (sc. Adunaic). Also in general manner it resembles the tongues of the Kasāri; though this is not to be wondered at, if the tradition that they have is true that Aule devised for them their tongue in its beginning, and therefore it changes little, whereas the iglishmēk which they made for themselves is changeable
Quendi and Eldar (HoME 11)

The 'he' in the opening line is Rumil, the sage of Tirion. We can see that he comments on the similarity he found in mannish and Dwarvish tongues, that he saw. (Kasari is Quenya for Dwarves.)

I also found this interesting comment in the unpublished

Appendix D: Quendi and Eldar

But the later legend that Aule also acquainted him with the language that he had made for the Dwarves may be an addition due to the fame of Fëanor.
So there was a rumor going round that Aule taught Feanor Khuzdul? Surely this rumour must have had some truth in it? Did Aule tell Feanor of the Dwarves as well then?
 

Beleg

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The circumstances in them certainly won't allow for big hoards, [With people of Marach as big as upto 6 adult men with a lot more in the Vales of Auduin and Eriador] to escape Morgoth Worship
Oh the six was meant to be Six Thousand! refering to the relative information concerning the Men of the Three clans where People of Beor are said to be 2000 men with Marachians thrice their number.

Oh and wonderful speculating Inderjit, I agree with most that is said, Although the Teleri making dwelling on the Sea of Rhun is doubtful because they would certainly be effected when Men arrived in the world and when Morgoth himself came and started sending his emmeseries to pevert men.
 

Eriol

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Since I've not read HoME 12, I can (mostly) enjoy only; but the more you talk about the wide distribution of Elves in M-E, the more intriguing it is to see their absence from the Athrabeth. Also, of these elves who stayed at the Sea of Rhûn agreed with the March at the beginning, would they be considered Avari? They did not refuse the summons, after all.

As for the worship issue; sorry guys, but I still disagree. You can't lie when you say those words. We are speaking of Men who were in doubt, who still remembered the Voice, that's for sure; but when they open their mouths to speak those words, they have compromised their souls. They have worshipped Morgoth. They have forsaken the Voice.

Stalin never demanded worship, only fear; if that was all Morgoth ever demanded, you would be right. But worship can't be faked. It can be repented, and obviously it was; but having been uttered, it is done.
 

Inderjit S

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The circumstances in them certainly won't allow for big hoards, [With people of Marach as big as upto 6 adult men with a lot more in the Vales of Auduin and Eriador] to escape Morgoth Worship
Well, when dealing with latter Tolkien sources-we are dealing with the latter legendarium, where Men awoke close to Elves. This would give them many years to re-populate, esp. considering the fast rate of Mannish procreation. Remember, the people who reached Beleriand were just vanguards of the entire mannish population, there were many more men, not to mention other tribes.

Although the Teleri making dwelling on the Sea of Rhun is doubtful because they would certainly be effected when Men arrived in the world
Yes, but if you are to keep the theory of a Avarin dwelling opon the Sea of Rhun, then what is the difference between that and a early Telerin settlement? Of course, the term Avari, is applied to the Elves who didn't go on the march at all, and these did, but maybethey gave up after a while realising that the M-E life was the life for them.
 

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