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of Ingwe and the Vanyar

maarten

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I believe Ingwe was regarded as the Hing King off all the Eldar, but did he ever die or is he still alive in ME? And what of the Vanyar, did they ever do anything important or grande? I never read anything of their deeds...
 
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rootsradicals

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The Vanyar with the Valar's help saved all of Middle Earth from Melkor(Morgoth.) After none of the Nolder/Sindar/Man could beat him, Earendil went to the Valar and asked for their help. So they came over to Middle Earth and finally defeated Melkor. Its all in the Sil... Ingwe didn't die in that battle so I'm guessing the's still alive.
 

Ståle

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Around from beeing the bulk of the Host of the Valar in the War of Wrath(and thus quite capable warriors), they really just hang around Manwë and Varda all day and sing stuff. That's why they are rarely mentioned in the Silmarillion.
 
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Mormegil

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The Vanyar are really boring. And Ingwe is the most unworthy king ever!!
 

Tar-Elenion

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Ingwe actually did not participate in the War of Wrath. He never left Aman again from returning there after the Great Journey. In some writings his son led the Vanyarin portion of the Host of Valinor.
 

Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by maarten
thx for the replys, did not know that :)


He was the king of all the elder race and most dear in the hearts of manwe of all of the eldar. Also i was just wondering if say someone like Fingolfin returned 2 Aman would he be king of the noldor in Valinor or would Finarifin? Also after Gil-galad died shouldn't have Galadriel been High-queen of the noldor or if not ealier
 

Brent

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Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow




He was the king of all the elder race and most dear in the hearts of manwe of all of the eldar. Also i was just wondering if say someone like Fingolfin returned 2 Aman would he be king of the noldor in Valinor or would Finarifin? Also after Gil-galad died shouldn't have Galadriel been High-queen of the noldor or if not ealier
This is an interesting one and always has me puzzled because doesn't Turgon become High King after Fingon. Shouldn't that be Gil-galad ?
After all Maedhros was technically King after Faenor so why Turgon ?
 

Tar-Elenion

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feanor was not King of the Noldor. He lost his rights to that. Maedhros was not King of the Noldor. Turgon was the eldest eligible member of the House of Finwe and thus became King after Fingon. Women did not inherit the Kingship and thus Galadriel was ineligible.
 

Brent

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Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
feanor was not King of the Noldor. He lost his rights to that. Maedhros was not King of the Noldor. Turgon was the eldest eligible member of the House of Finwe and thus became King after Fingon. Women did not inherit the Kingship and thus Galadriel was ineligible.
Not Sure I agree with you. I wont argue Feanors case for High Kingship but I think you'll find its there, he dies. Then does it not say that Maedhros gave up his claim to the High Kingship to heal the rift between the two lines of the house of Finwe ? - Perhaps Grond or another loremaster has a comment here, but there doesn't seem to be talk of a contested claim. Also doesn't it say that the Noldor who remain took Finarfin for their King ? Its doesn't say High King though. Not sure on that one since Felagund is refered to as a King.

Therefore it would appear that the High Kingship passes to the male heir of the body.
Did Sallic law apply to the Elves ? Not sure on that, it seems a good reason why Elrond is not High King in the Third age since his claim would have to go through Idril.

If your arguement was correct the RIGHTFUL high king would have been Fingolfin anyway - as he was the eldest of the house of Finwe. Nope the book doesn't say that. When Fingon dies the eldest mael heir is .... Gil-Galad.

I agree the common arguement used is Turgon's age and it may be of relevance. Its not a great one though because Turgon was hidden away from everybody so Gil-galad would have been just as effective as King and isnt the title Titular anyway ?
 

Brent

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Back on topic

I understand that Finwe was one of the unbegotten ones but that Ingwe wasn't. Elwe wasn't because he had two brothers. Can anyone provide more info on the unbegotten ones. Is there anywhere a reason why the High King of All the Elves is not one of those that awoke ?
 

Tar-Elenion

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Originally posted by Brent
I understand that Finwe was one of the unbegotten ones but that Ingwe wasn't. Elwe wasn't because he had two brothers. Can anyone provide more info on the unbegotten ones. Is there anywhere a reason why the High King of All the Elves is not one of those that awoke ?
None of them were 'Unbegotten'. The Unbegotten (and 'legend' has it there were 144) each awoke with their respective spouse. Finwe was wed to Miriel, and Miriel had parents (Miriel was named 'Serinde' by her mother) and was, it is strongly implied, born in Aman. Elwe was wed to Melian of the Maia, and she did not 'awake' at Cuivienen, and as you note, he had to brothers. Ingwe had a sister (Indis, or Indis mother) and thus had parents.

Originally posted by Brent
Not Sure I agree with you. I wont argue Feanors case for High Kingship but I think you'll find its there, he dies. Then does it not say that Maedhros gave up his claim to the High Kingship to heal the rift between the two lines of the house of Finwe ? - Perhaps Grond or another loremaster has a comment here, but there doesn't seem to be talk of a contested claim. Also doesn't it say that the Noldor who remain took Finarfin for their King ? Its doesn't say High King though. Not sure on that one since Felagund is refered to as a King.
Therefore it would appear that the High Kingship passes to the male heir of the body.
At the time of the Rebellion of the Noldor, Fingolfin was the ruler of the Noldor of Tirion. Feanor had been exiled and Finwe held himself 'unkinged' (in effect he abdicated). After Finwe's death Feanor claims the Kingship, but this is not accepted by the most part of the Noldor, who will not renounce Fingolfin. Feanor and Fingolfin each claim the Kingship (hence 'rival claimants') and Feanor seems to recognize that his claim is in dispute as he later refers to himself as 'heir of the king', not as 'King' despite having asserted his right to it. Maedhros was not King of the Noldor (though he was a king of the Noldor). He waived his claim to the Kingship, in favour of Fingolfin's claim; Maedhros did not however 'abdicate'. Finarfin took up the rule of the Noldor who remained in Aman.


Did Sallic law apply to the Elves ? Not sure on that, it seems a good reason why Elrond is not High King in the Third age since his claim would have to go through Idril.
Some argue yes, some argue no. It might be noted that Dior was 'Thingol's Heir', and this was through a female line. It is implied that Maeglin could have been Turgon's heir (at least of Gondolin) and this is through a female line. It is also interesting to note that before their was a Gil-galad (the character) it was Elrond who 'ruled in the west of the world'. Gil-galad later replaced him in this position.

If your arguement was correct the RIGHTFUL high king would have been Fingolfin anyway - as he was the eldest of the house of Finwe. Nope the book doesn't say that.
What Maedhros says is: "If their lay no greivance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise."

When Fingon dies the eldest mael heir is .... Gil-Galad.

I agree the common arguement used is Turgon's age and it may be of relevance. Its not a great one though because Turgon was hidden away from everybody so Gil-galad would have been just as effective as King and isnt the title Titular anyway ?
When Fingon died the eldest (eligible) male heir was Turgon. Gil-galad was young (having been born in Beleriand). One main problem is that there were seemingly no 'codified' laws on inheritance of the Kingship at least not initially (and what need? No reason to believe an 'immortal' is going to die out of hand).
 

Brent

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Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


None of them were 'Unbegotten'. The Unbegotten (and 'legend' has it there were 144) each awoke with their respective spouse. Finwe was wed to Miriel, and Miriel had parents (Miriel was named 'Serinde' by her mother) and was, it is strongly implied, born in Aman. Elwe was wed to Melian of the Maia, and she did not 'awake' at Cuivienen, and as you note, he had to brothers. Ingwe had a sister (Indis, or Indis mother) and thus had parents.
So this is the Indis who is wed to Finwe. I though its says that Finwe "awoke", though that would contradict the Unbegotten theory I suppose.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


When Fingon died the eldest (eligible) male heir was Turgon. Gil-galad was young (having been born in Beleriand). One main problem is that there were seemingly no 'codified' laws on inheritance of the Kingship at least not initially (and what need? No reason to believe an 'immortal' is going to die out of hand).
etc etc. Thanks these posts are very informative. Does this info come from the HoME (I admit its a long time since I read the Sil.) ?

BTW the lack of codified laaws on the succession would mirror the olde English position on the title High King so I suppose that would appeal to JRR.

Thanks for this info - where can I find out more about the Unbegotten ?
 

Cian

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Brent, you can find Unbegotten related stuff in "Quendi and Eldar" in The War of the Jewels and the appendixed Cuivienyarna (a surviving Elvish child's tale mingled with counting lore)
 

Tar-Elenion

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Originally posted by Brent
So this is the Indis who is wed to Finwe. I though its says that Finwe "awoke", though that would contradict the Unbegotten theory I suppose.
???
You thought what said Finwe 'Awoke'?
 

Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Brent


etc etc. Thanks these posts are very informative. Does this info come from the HoME (I admit its a long time since I read the Sil.) ?

BTW the lack of codified laaws on the succession would mirror the olde English position on the title High King so I suppose that would appeal to JRR.

Thanks for this info - where can I find out more about the Unbegotten ?


Didn't Maedshros not claim the kingship after feanor fell. He gave it to fingolfin and then it was passed down onto the oldest living decendant of finarfin or fingolfin. The feanoreans went to happy with it either exc. Maedhros.
 

Tar-Elenion

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Yes, Maedhros waived his claim, saying that the Kingsgip was rightfully Fingolfin's. Fingolfin had been pursuing his claim to the Kingship back in Aman at the same time Feanor was.
 

Brent

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Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


???
You thought what said Finwe 'Awoke'?
Sorry the Silmarillion, its ages since I sat down and read it. But I thought it says Finwe awoke with the other Elves at Cuiviénen.
 

Grond

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Originally posted by Brent
Not Sure I agree with you. I wont argue Feanors case for High Kingship but I think you'll find its there, he dies. Then does it not say that Maedhros gave up his claim to the High Kingship to heal the rift between the two lines of the house of Finwe ? - Perhaps Grond or another loremaster has a comment here, but there doesn't seem to be talk of a contested claim. Also doesn't it say that the Noldor who remain took Finarfin for their King ? Its doesn't say High King though. Not sure on that one since Felagund is refered to as a King.

Therefore it would appear that the High Kingship passes to the male heir of the body.
Did Sallic law apply to the Elves ? Not sure on that, it seems a good reason why Elrond is not High King in the Third age since his claim would have to go through Idril.

If your arguement was correct the RIGHTFUL high king would have been Fingolfin anyway - as he was the eldest of the house of Finwe. Nope the book doesn't say that. When Fingon dies the eldest mael heir is .... Gil-Galad.

I agree the common arguement used is Turgon's age and it may be of relevance. Its not a great one though because Turgon was hidden away from everybody so Gil-galad would have been just as effective as King and isnt the title Titular anyway ?
I wouldn't presume to argue with Tar-Elenion about anything. You think I'm a lore master. I am one that bows to the insight of Tar-Elenion, ShagratU and Cian. They are the true loremasters of the board. All others are merely students. :)
 

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