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Round 10: GoT vs GoE

Scatha

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Yes, Findi, you still have me. :D But since I am not able to come up with quotes in english, I would like to have our resident *ghost* ;) enter the debate at this point.

Beth would like to finish this with me, if you all agree. :)
 

Lhunithiliel

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TWO butt-kickers in a team!?!?:eek: :eek: :eek:

Poor us! :p

But seriously, Beth and the ghost are welcome. It's fine with us!

And never bother about the quotes, Scatha!
In English or not, even your ghost won't find anything to back up the argument of th GoE's Team that the Ringwraiths suffered AT ALL! :p
Besides, you always have the GoT to provide quotes for you! :p (Kidding!)
 

Finduilas

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Yes, I too have nothing against Beth....come,come ;)....and I am patiently awaiting her appearance. :)

As for the quotes, there is no problem to use ours...Tolkien's I mean ;)... and I also think that if you want to post a quote but have not the text in English can try to translate it in English (as good as you can) and refer it to a chapter and a book. Thus we may find it and oppose it..:p
:)
 

Bethelarien

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Thanks for your acceptance. I will try to post later tonight, but due to a very recent family tragedy, I'll likely be spending most of the night in the ICU at the hospital. So I'll probably put up my first post tomorrow.
 

Lhunithiliel

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Oh, Beth! :(
I hope everything will be all right with your sis! !!!

I truly don't know what to do now with this debate!
:eek:
But don't feel obliged or anything to be here when you're needed somewhere else much more important!
 

Scatha

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Thanks Beth, but as I said before, your first concern is your family and not the debate. Know however that our hearts are with you and your sister. :)
 

CelebthĂ´l

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Just so i am clear on this, why did Omni leave? And after this is cleared up, can we get back to the debate? Thanx.

P.S. Beth, i really hope you sister gets well, as you know i have prayed for her and your family. . .
 

Finduilas

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Beth, please concern your family first.
There will be more debates but health is most important,because you can't turn it back...:(

We'll be waiting whenever you come.
 

Lhunithiliel

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I think that this debate has no further chances for development, taken into consideration the circumstances.

Therefore I offer the Eruhini to post their closing post. We'll follow.
 

Bethelarien

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Here I go. Yay for me. :D And I apologize for the abhorrent length of my post, but then again, I am replying to posts throughout the entire debate.

Did Gollum suffer more than anyone in Middle-earth ever had?
This is the question. The Guild of Eruhini has chosen to show that he did not.

Originally posted by Omni
*Others suffered equally, if not greater
*Gollum's suffering was due to his own devices
Here are two of our main reasonings as to our answer, once again.
Originally posted by Lhun
Because we firmly believe that the lesser hope for salvation of the soul for the sufferer, the greater his/her suffering is!
This is a belief that, naturally, has no documented basis, as our opponents have frequently accused us of.
Originally posted by Lhun
In answer to the question of the Debate they say: "No! Gollum was not the one who suffered most. There are others who did."
May I remind the GoT that the question is not whether or not Gollum suffered, but if he suffered the most? Of course he suffered. There were simply others who suffered more than he.
Originally posted by Lhun
they provided a list of those who suffered more than Gollum; the Rohirrim, Deagol, the Goblin King, etc. Oh! But I could also add a couple of dozens of names too!!!!
So there! Our opponents admit it! Others suffered more than Gollum!
Letter 246
For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes...when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His [Gollum's] repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is wasted.
If Gollum had been truly repentant, Sam's words to him would have made no difference. Repentance denotes a complete change of heart. And Tolkien says "the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect". Therefore, in essence, he HAD repented.

Now, the Ringwraiths. (I can practically see Lhun rolling her eyes.;))
Originally posted by Lhun
The point is that they NEVER wanted to repent!...Not in one instant none of them EVER regretted his choice or EVER wished or tried to undo the wrong done to the others!
Well, Lhun, as you've so delicately pointed out:
...Show me some quotes where a Ringwraith is shown to contemplate over his condition! I doubt one can find such a thing.
And yet, you've just told us exactly how the Nazgul feel. Hmmm....Lhun, the walking contradiction.;) Nevertheless, your above statement about the Ringwraiths' lack of regret is therefore unsubstantiated and cannot be used as evidence. Pity.
Aragorn, in FotR
They were once great kings of men. Then Sauron the Deceiver gave to them Nine Rings of Power. Blinded by their greed, they took them without question, one by one falling into darkness.
The Nazgul, once great kings of Men, were deceived by Sauron. Now, remember, at this time Sauron was Lord of Gifts, not the cruel Dark Lord. They took them without question, as did the Dwarves and Elves. THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

Why is this important, you may ask? Because suffering denotes a victim. One who suffers is a victim, that is simply how it is. A victim almost always does not know what is going on until it is too late, as the case is with the Nazgul. The Nazgul, not knowing Sauron's intentions until it was too late, were not given a choice. Of course they took the offered rings. They were kings, and the rings were kingly gifts. No doubt they were used to receiving such gifts.

Gollum, on the other hand, had many choices, many chances.
The Two Towers
Gollum looked at them. A strage expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee-but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old straved pitiable thing.
This is Gollum's chance, one of many. He had begun to love Frodo. Of course, we know that later Sam says some harsh things, and our opponents claim this prevents Gollum's repentence. For heaven's sake, no! Gollum had the choice--and he chose to let Sam's negativity and unkindness sway him. Had he truly repented, his heart would have been truly changed, and such a comment would not have invoked such wickedness from Smeagol.
Originally posted by Omni
I would have thought that losing your soul, your will, your humanity is a suffering of no comparison.
Precisely. As my esteemed colleague has said, losing your humanity would be suffering of no comparison. The Nazgul no longer had the freedom to think or act for themselves. They were COMPLETELY under Sauron's thumb. They could make no choices, and had, in truth, no accountability. Gollum, on the other hand, was free to choose. His will was not Sauron's, nor anyone elses' but his; therefore, he could choose, and chose wickedness.

And then there is this preposterous comment by Gil-Galad (no offense ;))
He left not bcause of his will but because of the circumstances, because of other's attitude towards him.
WHAT?!? Oh, good grief! Once again, our opponents blame others for Gollum's choices. He CHOSE to leave, under circumstances he himself had created by murdering Deagol.

Another one by Gil-Galad:
But he [Gollum] could not resist as I said. That was the thing which made Gollum suffer more than everbody else.
What on earth?!? Of course Gollum could have resisted. He could have overcome it. Bilbo did. As you will recall, Bilbo WILLINGLY gave up the Ring. True, Gollum had the One longer than Bilbo and Frodo put together. However, he still had a chance.

Now one by Lhun:
He [Sauron] did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him....Sauron NOT even through all his powers could overcome the core of good he sensed in Gollum!
Nice try, but "indomitable" does not equate to "core of good".
indomitable-Incapable of being overcome, subdued, or vanquished; unconquerable. Not meaning "core of good".

Now, to sum up my rather lengthy post.

Gollum did not suffer more than anyone else in Middle-earth, most certainly not more than the Ringwraiths. As my esteemed colleague Omni has said:
To know that you have absolutely no way of redeeming yourself, you have no way of making up for the evil you've done. You have no freedom. No will. No mind. That suffering is more unbearable than fighting with the hope of someday redeeming oneself, to find oneself free!
and
No controll over will = no choice in resistance. That is a great suffering. To exist, yet not to be able to controll oneself.
And there you have it. Having been stripped of soul, will, and humanity, the Nazgul suffered far greater than Gollum. Therefore, Gollum did not suffer more than any being in Middle-earth.

So say I, Bethelarien the indomitable. :D
 

Lhunithiliel

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Ooops! :eek:
I posted a closing post but it seems I must have miscalculated the time left to the end of the debate!
I was asked by the Host to delete it... So... I did.... :(

Thol...Thol... You should've warned us in time!

Anyway, I still wish the judges good luck in judging the debate and I also thank our opponinets for the nice opportunity to debate against them.

Hm... Some more organizationa could've still be useful, you know... :rolleyes:
 

CelebthĂ´l

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Im sorry :( I messed up the whole debate :( Im sorry, i would have closed it, but i wanst awake at 1am GMT :(

I really am very sorry :(
 

CelebthĂ´l

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I have no choice, 14 hours is WAY to long a time. Tho i won't object if you wished to take this to a higher person, someone who is more qualified. . . Eri maybe?
 

Gil-Galad

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Well I think we did our job in the best possible way even without the closing post,but the problem is that we were not warned,and I think we were supposed to be warned.
At least something like "There are four hours left" or etc. ...
 

Lhunithiliel

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It's OK. Really!
Things happen....

We did a great job.... So did our opponents....

Let's close the topic :)
 

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