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Round 7: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Tolkienology

Bethelarien

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I apologize to both teams for the delay in putting this thread up. My life has been extremely hectic lately, and I was only asked to host this debate a couple of days ago. My sincere apologies for any inconveniences.

Once both sides have posted their teams, I'll put up a topic.

Judges for this debate round:

GoE/D: Bethelarien
GoO: Nom
GoS: baragund
OiE: Arvedui
Neutral: Talierin
 
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CelebthĂŽl

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Tis okay, no harm done :)

The Periaur team will consist of:

~Aulë~
~Snaga~
~Legolam~ (I think)
~CelebthĂŽl~


If it is not Legolam, ill edit it when i find out. . .
 

Bethelarien

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The Topic

The Silmarillion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien

Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Luthien may set her hand in yours. (Thingol to Beren)
Was Thingol right to impose the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren?

Since the GoP is the home team, they may choose the side of the debate and begin.
 

CelebthĂŽl

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Just a quick observation, a certain young debater ancious to get away is using under-handed tactics to get a head start. . . three guesses as to who, though you will only need one :rolleyes:.

I believe for this abomination, the GoT should forfeit a member. ;)
 

Snaga

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Let's get this show on the road.

The position of the Periaur is that Thingol was wrong to impose the Quest of the Silmaril on Beren.

I'll summarise the reasons in this post, and my colleagues and I can go into more detail as the debate unfolds.

The reasons come down to this: that Thingol selfishly attempted to thwart the love of Beren and Luthien, in a manner that he believed to be devious. But this scheme failed in its design, in that it didnt prevent the union of Beren and Luthien. Moreover it put in motion events that lead to the ruin of Doriath, and the death of Thingol itself.

Our opponents will doubtless argue that the recovery of the Silmaril was a great achievement that would never have happened without Thingol's action. But he never intended Beren to succeed. Quite the reverse - he never expected to see Beren alive again. We should honour Beren and Luthiens for their deeds, not credit Thingol for his deviousness.

Perhaps too they will say it was instrumental in allowing the Voyage of Earendil to succeed, and thus the intervention of the Valar that finally defeated Morgoth. But this argument, while superficially appealing, doesnt stand up. Why? Because these event, long after Thingols time were the achievement of the descendents of Beren and Luthien, whose marriage he aimed to prevent. They were far after his time, and concern matters which he had never consciously tried to influence.

Thingol had always tried to stay out of the Wars of the Noldor. But his action, in laying the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren, meant this was no longer viable. The consequence of the Silmaril arriving in Doriath are well known: the war with the dwarves, and the attack of the sons of Feanor.

But more fundamental than all this we will show that Thingol's attitude to Beren was unjustified and unwise. He sought to send Beren to his death, for the 'crime' of loving his daughter. For a man who was a valiant elf-friend to be treated in this way cannot be condoned.

- It was wrong to try to thwart the love of Beren and Luthien.
- It was wrong to treat Beren like a criminal, and to try to send him to his death.
- It lead to the ruin of Doriath and the death of Thingol himself.
- Thingol's intentions came to nothing.
- Any good that came out of it was in spite of Thingol, and not because of him.

These are our reasons for saying that Thingol was wrong. Over to you, Tolkienologists!:)
 

Lhunithiliel

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I am sorry to intrude here, but as Thol IS a member of the GoT as well.......... hmmmmmmmmm........... does he have the right to participate in the present debate AGAINST the GoT?
Thol? :confused:

Besides, I need to know what you mean by:
Just a quick observation, a certain young debater ancious to get away is using under-handed tactics to get a head start. . . three guesses as to who, though you will only need one .

I believe for this abomination, the GoT should forfeit a member.
Will you please?

Thank you and good luck to both teams.....AFTER the above matters have been arranged.
 

Aulë

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Lhun,
Thol was a member of the GotP before he joined the GoT.
And do not forget people like Beth and Scatha, who are apart of GoT too, yet you allow them to debate...

I believe that Thol was jokingly referring to Anamatar, who contacted him on MSN, pretending to be on the Periaur team to gather 'inside information'.
 

CelebthĂŽl

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Yes, what he said. . . if you had got to me before Aulë i would be debating for GoT, but hes excedingly quick to round up a team. . . :( sowwy.
 

Lhunithiliel

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Thol, I do NOT object to your membership in the GoT, you know it!

But ..... ain't it .... a bit strange ... a member of our Guild - debating against the Guild itself?

I think, the situation could be solved simply by replacing Thol with another debator. Thol can of course debate in any other case when such a contradiction does not exist.

Aule, Scatha and Beth were not allowed to debate agaist the GoT and Scatha was even dismissed from judging a debate for being a member of the GoT.

But..... don't misunderstand me.... I, personally, do not have anything against all that. The debating tournament is a wonderful opportunity for exchanging knowledge!It really does NOT matter which guild one belongs to.

It's only that such situations are to be probably discussed and a suitable solution should be found.
I know that C9 has permitted it for a TTF-er to be a member of more than one Guild. Fine! But when it comes to debating between guilds.... then ?????
:confused:
 

Aulë

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Beth and Scatha both debated against the GoT in Round 5.
I don't see why you're suddenly complaining about this. You're creating a storm in a teacup.:rolleyes:
Sometimes I get the feeling that the GoT try to create trouble in their debates....;)

Maybe it would be better if this convo continued in the DT Discussion thread?
 

Manveru

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Seize fire... both sides... it's pointless

No trouble meant... Are we cool here?

I'd like to say only that we'll post our "opener" later today (read: as soon as I get it confirmed from all my teammates).

Patience would be appreciated. THX:D

BTW: Lhun, Aule's got a point about Scatha...
And I'd really like to see this 'silly' battle about Thol closed... For Eru's sake, the boy will be unable to debate in the end... because of a nervous breakdown! (I'm kidding:D I know it won't happen;)).
 

Snaga

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Hmm... perhaps you have a point. Thol has divided loyalties... perhaps he will be a handicap to our team. Perhaps he will deliberately post badly to undermine the Periaur cause.... *thinks carefully* But I think we'll take the risk. But thank you for your concern, Lhun. Its nice that you are trying to win fair and square. Here's to fair and honest debate!:)
 

Manveru

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A glass can be half-empty or half-full. It depends on how one sees it.;)
Was Thingol right to impose the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren?
Seems like a "one-sided" question, but only at first... (see a top of this post;)).
We, Tolkienologists, would argue that Thingol was right in doing so. Why?
The opposing team put some suppositions (totally missed IMHO) as to what would be our "course" of debating (are you guys playing oracles or just guessing...:rolleyes: ). Doesn't matter... You forgot about one "tiny" detail that is: FATHER'S LOVE.
From Of the Sindar:
And at the end of the first age of the Chaining of Melkor, when all the Earth had peace and the glory of Valinor was at its noon, there came into the world LĂșthien, the only child of Thingol and Melian.
(...) the beauty of LĂșthien was as the dawn in spring.
From Of Beren and Luthien:
Then the King was filled with anger, for LĂșthien he loved above all things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into his service.
'Who are you', said the King, 'that come hither as a thief, and unbidden dare to approach my throne?'
Thingol answered: 'I sell not to Elves or Men those whom I love and cherish above all treasure.
And mark this also. Thingol didn't know Beren. And he also wasn't fond of Men (as a race in general). He needed sth (a proof) that this "child of little lords and brief kings" (as he named him in his thought) was worthy of a "price" which his hand reached out for. I know, I know... I hear already your wild cries like: "But Thingol never expected to see Beren again! He sent him to an inevitable death!". That's right. But then again Beren nearly 'gave' the idea himself:
Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms, shall keep from me the treasure that I desire.
Could Thingol have thought of a better 'trial' than that...

- Thingol loved his daughter more than ANYTHING in the world.
- Beren, his achievements or the deeds of his father meant nothing to Thingol in this matter.
- He wanted to see if Beren was worthy of the "price". After all, it wasn't a dispute about some sword or other reward (be it of the greatest value). She was a king's daughter, his "only child", for Eru's sake!
- The Quest was, in some way, equal to the reward (though Thingol still considered himself to be generous).

These are our reasons for that Thingol was right to impose the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren.
 

CelebthĂŽl

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*breaks down nervously* :D J/K ;)

On the final word on this stuff, i will do my best for the Periaur, and i will debate for GoT next time these two teams meet. :) How's that?
 

Aulë

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Originally posted by Manveru
- He wanted to see if Beren was worthy of the "price". After all, it wasn't a dispute about some sword or other reward (be it of the greatest value). She was a king's daughter, his "only child", for Eru's sake!
- The Quest was, in some way, equal to the reward (though Thingol still considered himself to be generous).[/B]
Interesting...interesting....
It is amazing how selective quoting makes it seem that way....:rolleyes: Beware, judges, as the Tolkienologists are trying to make fools out of you by taking Tolkien's words out of context. ;)
Perhaps we should 'fill in the gaps', and reveal what Thingol was really thinking? Hmmm?

Of Beren and LĂșthien
But Daeron the minstrel also loved LĂșthien, and he espied her meetings with Beren, and betrayed them to Thingol. Then the King was filled with anger, for LĂșthien he loved above all things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into his service. Therefore he spoke in grief and amazement to LĂșthien; but she would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him.
Of Beren and LĂșthien
But Thingol spoke slowly, saying: 'Death you have earned with these words; and death you should find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of which I repent, baseborn mortal, who in the realm of Morgoth has learnt to creep in secret as his spies and thralls.'
Indeed Thingol loved his daughter, and because of this he was prepared to make an oath that he would not kill Beren.
But under no circumstances was he prepared to allow LĂșthien to marry Beren, and he became angered at Beren's words and regretted his oath, so he got around his promise by sending Beren on a quest which appeared to be impossible/suicidal to prevent Beren from marrying LĂșthien.
Manveru seems to think that the given task was a 'trial' of sorts, to see if Beren was worthy. I think not.

Once Thingol had named his 'price':
Of Beren and LĂșthien
And those that heard these words perceived that Thingol would save his oath, and yet send Beren to his death; for they know that not all the power of the Noldor, before the Siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining Silmarils of FĂ«anor. For they were set in the Iron Crown, and treasured in Angband above all wealth; and Balrogs were about them, and countless swords, and strong bars, and unassailable walls, and the dark majesty of Morgoth.
Of Beren and LĂșthien
Then at last Melian spoke, and she said to Thingol: 'O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doom either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.' But Thingol answered: 'I sell not to Elves or Men those whom I love and cherish above all treasure. And if there were hope or fear that Beren should come ever back alive to Menegroth, he should not have looked again upon the light of heaven, though I had sworn it.'
Thingol had sent Beren to his death.
The wise Sindar of Doriath perceived this, as did the Ainur Melian. Thingol had been cunning, and had seemingly gotten rid of Beren, whilst keeping his promise to LĂșthien. As Thingol states, he would not give up his daughter for any treasure (including the Silmaril). So why would he apparently exchange his daughter for the Silmaril? It seems as if Thingol sent Beren on a quest which would claim his life. If Thingol had thought that Beren could retrieve the Silmaril and return with it to Menegroth, he would not have traded his daughter for it, even if Beren was the only one in the world who could have snatched it from Morgoth's grasp. Thingol even says that he would have killed Beren (and broken his oath to LĂșthien) if there was a chance of him returning.

Of Beren and LĂșthien
Thus he wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared within the curse of Mandos.
This last quote also adds more wood to this fire that is this debate, as it shows that Thingol brought the Doom of Mandos upon himself and his people.

The Doom of Mandos
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of FĂ«anor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they ever be for ever.'
Not something that you would want given to you...



Now, indeed Thingol loved his daughter more than anything else, but one thinks that he took this love too far. Sure, he wanted to protect LĂșthien: he did not want her marrying a mortal, but LĂșthien loved Beren.
HoME X: The Athrabeth
[A conversation between Finrod and Andreth sister of Boromir, regarding her love of Aegnor]
'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'
'But the end is always cruel - for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him! '
'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.
'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair - ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'
Indeed, this was what Thingol was concerned about. He wanted to protect LĂșthien from that fate.
But LĂșthien was no fool by any means. She would have known of the consequences of a marriage between herself and Beren. But she was prepared to make that sacrifice.
Thingol should have respected LĂșthien's decision. That would have shown true love to his daughter.
Instead, he threw her opinions out of the window, and decided for himself what her 'best interests' were. But were they? No.
Thingol was not right to impose the quest apon Beren. He was being over-protective, and virtually sent Beren to his doom to do so.
Perhaps he could have pleaded with LĂșthien to think of her future, as to prevent the marriage, yet spare Beren's life? And perhaps he did, to no avail?
But either way, his decision was wrong. LĂșthien had accepted the price of marrying Beren, and Thingol should have realised this.
 

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