(former)blue angel of GoT
- Jun 12, 2003
- Reaction score
I still think it was only a 'trial'. Do you really think Thingol desired the Silmaril for himself? In exchange for his daughter? His "only child" that he loved more than anything...Originally posted by Aule:
Manveru seems to think that the given task was a 'trial' of sorts, to see if Beren was worthy. I think not.
Who wouldn't be angered? Let's look at Thingol's attitude towards Men (from the begining of their existance):Originally posted by Aule:
Indeed Thingol loved his daughter, and because of this he was prepared to make an oath that he would not kill Beren.
But under no circumstances was he prepared to allow Lúthien to marry Beren, and he became angered at Beren's words and regretted his oath, so he got around his promise by sending Beren on a quest which appeared to be impossible/suicidal to prevent Beren from marrying Lúthien.
As I said before Thingol disliked Men (all the race). It was not easy for him just to 'hand over' his beloved child to a "representative of the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed"... So I don't see anything 'inappropriate' in sending Beren on a 'trial', which he himself 'proposed' (though not being fully aware of this-that's his problem).From Of the Coming of Men into the West:
It is said that in all these matters [concerning Men] none save Finrod Felagund took counsel with King Thingol, and he was ill pleased, both for that reason, and because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did; and he said: 'Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bëor who serve Finrod the beloved.' Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bëor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.'
Thingol stated that still believing Men to be as he thought of them from the begining... He said that also in anger, but let us look what really happened when Beren showed up again in Menegroth:Originally posted by Aule:
If Thingol had thought that Beren could retrieve the Silmaril and return with it to Menegroth, he would not have traded his daughter for it, even if Beren was the only one in the world who could have snatched it from Morgoth's grasp. Thingol even says that he would have killed Beren (and broken his oath to Lúthien) if there was a chance of him returning.
Still thinking Thingol desired the Silmaril? No comment...From Of Beren and Luthien:
Even in that dark hour Beren and Lúthien returned, hastening from the west, and the news of their coming went before them like a sound of music borne by the wind into dark houses where men sit sorrowful. They came at last to the gates of Menegroth, and a great host followed them. Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. But Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
And Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and Lúthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, and among the great in Arda, and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Lúthien before the throne of her father.
I don't really think it's crucial point to a topic of this debate...Originally posted by Aule:
This last quote also adds more wood to this fire that is this debate, as it shows that Thingol brought the Doom of Mandos upon himself and his people.