🧙 The Tolkien Forum 🧝

Welcome to our forum! Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox! Plus you won't see ads ;)

Round 7: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Tolkienology

Manveru

(former)blue angel of GoT
Joined
Jun 12, 2003
Messages
1,070
Reaction score
0
Location
Edinburgh
Originally posted by Aule:
Manveru seems to think that the given task was a 'trial' of sorts, to see if Beren was worthy. I think not.
I still think it was only a 'trial'. Do you really think Thingol desired the Silmaril for himself? In exchange for his daughter? His "only child" that he loved more than anything...
Originally posted by Aule:
Indeed Thingol loved his daughter, and because of this he was prepared to make an oath that he would not kill Beren.
But under no circumstances was he prepared to allow LĂșthien to marry Beren, and he became angered at Beren's words and regretted his oath, so he got around his promise by sending Beren on a quest which appeared to be impossible/suicidal to prevent Beren from marrying LĂșthien.
Who wouldn't be angered? Let's look at Thingol's attitude towards Men (from the begining of their existance):
From Of the Coming of Men into the West:
It is said that in all these matters [concerning Men] none save Finrod Felagund took counsel with King Thingol, and he was ill pleased, both for that reason, and because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did; and he said: 'Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of BĂ«or who serve Finrod the beloved.' Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of BĂ«or's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.'
As I said before Thingol disliked Men (all the race). It was not easy for him just to 'hand over' his beloved child to a "representative of the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed"... So I don't see anything 'inappropriate' in sending Beren on a 'trial', which he himself 'proposed' (though not being fully aware of this-that's his problem;)).
Originally posted by Aule:
If Thingol had thought that Beren could retrieve the Silmaril and return with it to Menegroth, he would not have traded his daughter for it, even if Beren was the only one in the world who could have snatched it from Morgoth's grasp. Thingol even says that he would have killed Beren (and broken his oath to LĂșthien) if there was a chance of him returning.
Thingol stated that still believing Men to be as he thought of them from the begining... He said that also in anger, but let us look what really happened when Beren showed up again in Menegroth:
From Of Beren and Luthien:
Even in that dark hour Beren and LĂșthien returned, hastening from the west, and the news of their coming went before them like a sound of music borne by the wind into dark houses where men sit sorrowful. They came at last to the gates of Menegroth, and a great host followed them. Then Beren led LĂșthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. But Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
And Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and LĂșthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, and among the great in Arda, and the love of LĂșthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of LĂșthien before the throne of her father.
Still thinking Thingol desired the Silmaril? No comment...
Originally posted by Aule:
This last quote also adds more wood to this fire that is this debate, as it shows that Thingol brought the Doom of Mandos upon himself and his people.
I don't really think it's crucial point to a topic of this debate...
 

Aulë

The Larrikin
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
2,988
Reaction score
6
Location
Perth, Australia
Once again, Tolkienologists taking things out of context....:rolleyes:
I hope I don't have to put up with this for the rest of the debate. I would expect better from the Tolkienologists.

Still thinking Thingol desired the Silmaril? No comment...
I never once said that Thingol desired the Silmaril. I said that Thingol desired the death of Beren over even the possession of the Silmaril.

I still think it was only a 'trial'. Do you really think Thingol desired the Silmaril for himself? In exchange for his daughter? His "only child" that he loved more than anything...
He did not send Beren on a trial. He sent him to his doom.
Read my above post for the reasoning.

As I said before Thingol disliked Men (all the race). It was not easy for him just to 'hand over' his beloved child to a "representative of the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed"...
Just because Thingol disliked Men, doesn't make it a right decision to send Beren to his doom. In fact, his discrimination against Men makes it even more wrong.

I don't really think it's crucial point to a topic of this debate...
And a debate does not just consist of one crucial point. ;)

Please read my posts before picking out the bits you like, and jumble their meaning next time.
It becomes quite tiresome having to repeat myself.
 

Snaga

The Usual Suspect
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
5
Of course Thingol's love for his daughter drove him to this end. But it is possible to do something wrong out of motivations that are not bad in and of themselves.

I can't believe any neutral observer is going to conclude that sending someone on a seemingly impossible task that will in all likelihood lead to their death is the right way to deal with someone who wants to marry your daughter.

Thingol’s words and thoughts drip with prejudice against Beren because he was a man. There is no need to furnish quotes, since Manveru has already provided them. This was the real reason for deciding this route... there's no way an elf would have been treated this way. What amazes me is that Manveru considers this to be some kind of justification. Go the Elf Supremacists!!;)

Your claim that Thingol was setting a 'fair test' for Beren, is not borne out by the text. Thingol himself says
Death you would have earned with these words; and death you would have found suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste
In other words Thingol wanted Beren dead, and would have had Beren killed if Luthien had made him promise not to. The quest was the next best thing.

Its actually gets worse, the more you think about it. Thingol again:
I sell not to Elves or Men those who I love and cherish above all treasure. And if there were hope or fear that Beren would should ever come back alive to Menegroth, he should not have looked again upon the light of heaven, though I had sworn it.
He didnt want to be an oath-breaker directly, but he was actually prepared to in order to thwart the love of Beren and Luthien. This wasn’t a test of Beren's worthiness to wed Luthien, it was an attempt to send him to his death.

Finally, Manuveru wants us to consider Thingol's attitude after the quest... as though the fact he softens his position after the seemingly impossible happens excuses the fact that he acted in this cruel and unjust manner. Of course it doesn't! It actually shows that Thingol himself repented of his prejudice. The fact that the quest did prove Beren loyal absolutely doesnt mean that the quest was ever devised as a test. What it shows is that Thingol himself realised he was wrong. It is only the Tolkienologists who disagree!
 

Legolam

Ad astra per aspera
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
435
Reaction score
0
Location
Edinburgh, Scotland
Originally posted by Manveru
Still thinking Thingol desired the Silmaril? No comment...
Actually, I beg to differ:

See now! I too desire a treasure that is withheld. For rock and steel and the fires of Morgoth keep the jewel that I would possess against all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms
Seems like no elf could keep his hands off the Silmarils
 

CelebthĂŽl

Loremaster
Joined
Oct 2, 2002
Messages
2,413
Reaction score
3
I still think it was only a 'trial'. Do you really think Thingol desired the Silmaril for himself? In exchange for his daughter? His "only child" that he loved more than anything...
But of course not enough to let her make her own decision based on her own feelings though. . . :rolleyes:


Let's get Melian's view on all this

Then Melian leaned to Thingol's side, and in whispered counsel bade him forgo his wrath. 'For not by you' she said, 'shall Beren be slain; and far and free does his fate lead him in the end, yet it is wound with yours. Take heed!'
But did he? . . . Lets see. . .

But Thingol looked silently on LĂșthien; and he thought in his heart: 'Unhappy men, children of little lords and brief Kings, shall such as these lay hands on you, and yet live?' Then breaking the silence he said: 'I see the ring son of Barahir, and I percieve you are proud, and deem yourself mighty. But a fathers deeds, even had his service been rendered to me, avail not to with the daughter of Thingol and Melian. See now! I too desire a treasure that is witheld. For rock and steel and the fires of Morgoth keep the jewel that i would posses against all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms. Yet I hear you say that binds such as these do not daunt you. Go your way therefore! Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then if she will, LĂșthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel; and though the fate of Arda lie within the Silmarils, yet you shall call me generous.'
Melian even still is against him. . .

Oh King, you have devised cunning councel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.'

Even though Thingol states he doenst put a price on LĂșthien's head, he just did!

Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then if she will, LĂșthien may set her hand in yours.
Some father, he just promise that if he had the Silmaril he would give up his daughter, that is NOT love, but greed fed by greater greed!
 

Finduilas

Hope brings Death...
Joined
Oct 11, 2002
Messages
1,284
Reaction score
1
Location
Bulgaria
Until now, despite being 'hot', this debate hasn't covered even half of the points and conceptions, concerning the topic. Let's start with an interpretation of the topic:

Was Thingol right to impose the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren?
Having in mind that an issue may be discussed from different points of view, it is logical to expand the debate. There are at least two angles from which the discussion may start:

1.Morallity in Thingol's personal choice: The key word is "personal". Upto this moment the debate has been "rolling" round this idea, discussing whether it was a good deed of Thingol's or a shameless action caused by anger, love and jealousy. If we lead the debate only on this way, discussing the emotions and reactions of the characters, the discussion itself will turn into a passionate arguement. As it has become...

2.HIstorical consequences of Thingol's decision: This way is less painful. It has been ignored but it should have been evolved paralelly with the first one, at least to cool of the atmosphere.
Let's quote the opponent:
Thingol's intentions came to nothing.
Have they really?His intentions were:
-to protect his daughter;
-to 'test' her 'probable' future husband;
-to probably send him to death;
-to keep his oath.

The only thing in which he didn't succeed is to send Beren to death. But otherwise he kept his oath and found the best 'match' for his daughter. What's more, he tool part in Morgoth's destroyment. His intentions were quite successful and exactly his intentions wrote the history.
But the Periaur also add:
Any good that came out of it was in spite Thingol, and not because of him.
I,personally, do not see the logic here. What did Thingol do?He sent Beren ona Quest which happened to be successful. Indeed it was risky but life is a challange. So, back to the point, Thingol had no part in the good consequences...Did he?He made the decision and he encouraged the Quest. He might have intended it to turn into a failure, but it is a fact that Beren succeeded...
So, if we leave for a moment the moral side of the discussion, we may dig deeper in the history.
To decide whether the decision had been right or wrong, it is logical to start with the question:
"Was the Quest successful?" Well, its purpose was to 'defeat' Morgoth in a little battle for the Simaril. And, despite the unnumbered tears and death, the Silmaril was finally brought back. And during this process the following deeds had been done:

1.Finrod fulfilled his duty towards Barahir;
2.Carcharoth was killed;
3.Beren proved hislove;
4.Beren sacrificed in order to keep his promise and the order of king Thingol and thus won his mercy;
5.Luthien and Beren's love became the purest and also most unfortunate one.It also turned into a beautiful legend which inspired many young lovers and poets later.

And also the latest consequences:

1.Earendil used the Silmaril for the safety of Middle Earth.

It was a Quest and that means that a result is expected and also adventures.
Having in mind the above, from a pure historical point of viewwe can conclude that the Quest was successful.

From the Letters of Tolkien,131:
The chief of the stories of the Silmarillion , and the one most fully treated is the Story of Beren and Luthien the Elfmaiden.Here we meet,among other things,the first example of the motive (...)that the great policies of world history,'the wheels of the world',are often turned not by the Lords and Governers,even gods,but by the seemingly unknown and weak-owing to the secret life in creation,and the part unknownable to all wisdom but One,that resides in the intrusions of the Children of God into Drama. It is Beren the outlawed mortal who succeeds (...) where all the armies and warriors have failed:he penetrates the stronghold of the Enemy and wrests one of the Silmarilli from the Iron Crown. Thus he wins the hand of Luthien and the first marriage of mortal and immortal is achieved.
Clear enough, Tolkien himself has said that this particular Quest was an useful and demanded one. Therefore, the person. Thingol, who has given the order of this Quest must have done the right choice(from historical point of view).
 

Finduilas

Hope brings Death...
Joined
Oct 11, 2002
Messages
1,284
Reaction score
1
Location
Bulgaria
Nonetheless, we come across this quote a bit later in the letter:

For the Silmaril, a supreme victory, leads to disaster. The oath of the sons of Feanor becomes operative , lust for the Silmaril brings all the kingdoms of the Elves to ruin
But not accidently the oath is mentioned. For it destroys everything on its way and the Quest has no guilt in this case.

In addition to this, the Quest, Beren and Luthien and their destiny served as a lesson to the later generations;I'll quote the great "Tolkienologists" Michael Martinez for I wouldn't have said it better.

From M. M. 's Unwritten Tales of Love and War in Middle Earth:
...Suppose Celeborn didn't feel Elrond was quite good enough for his daughter? Thingol initially felt the same way toward Beren. And when Elrond perceived Aragorn's love for Arwen,he deemed Arwen to be above Aragorn. And perhaps something more: Elrond knew well the story of his own great-grandparents , Beren and Luthien.
A wonderful tactical move , Thingol order remains in the history of Middle Earth as one of the most dangerous and in fact impossible. However, history is mostly written by 'mad' Emperors with riskful decisions. Remember, The World War Two or the expansions of Alexander the Macedonian, or a vivid moment of the Bulgarian history: the sacrifice at peak Shipka...
 

Aulë

The Larrikin
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
2,988
Reaction score
6
Location
Perth, Australia
Ack! Those red-coloured words are painful on the eyes. ;)


Now, Finduilas seems to think that Thingol predicted all these events that come along with Beren's Quest. That he knew that Carcharoth would be killed, that he knew that Finrod would fulfil his duty, that Beren would retrieve the Silmaril.

But we are talking about Thingol's decision here. Not the outcomes that resulted of this decision. When Thingol made the decision, he wanted to kill Beren, but thanks to the oath he couldn't. So he sends Beren away on a 'Quest' that he believes will not be accomplished. When Thingol made his decision, he thought that Beren would be killed by Morgoth's minions, or Morgoth himself. Thingol wanted the death of Beren over even the possession of the Silmaril! Something that he desired greatly.
Indeed, Thingol had become aggitated by Beren's words and actions- but that does not excuse him from making wrong decisions. What Thingol did would be called 'attempted murder' in today's courts.

Finduilas still seems to think that Beren was sent on a 'test' to see if he was worthy of marrying Luthien. But how can it be a test if he did not expect Beren to return? He said himself that if he had thought Beren could have stolen the Silmaril, he would have broken his oath to Luthien.
Let us define the word 'test':
test (tst)
n.
A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something; a trial: a test of one's eyesight; subjecting a hypothesis to a test; a test of an athlete's endurance.
But how would Thingol be able to evaluate whether Beren was worthy to marry Luthien if (as Thingol had thought) Beren was lying dead in the pits of Angband?
"Hmmm, Beren died...he mustn't be worthy then..."
It had not crossed Thingol's mind that Beren may accomplish the quest. Therefore he would not have thought Beren would be worthy of marrying Luthien. Since this was the case, Thingol was not testing Beren. He was just 'getting him out of the picture'.

Now let us go into Thingol's motives behind his decision:

1. Thingol did not like Men, he was prejudiced against them. Is this a good thing? No. Therefore he did not want LĂșthien to marry one. In fact, he wished to kill Beren for it. But luckily for Beren, LĂșthien coaxed Thingol into making an oath. But Thingol still wanted to get rid of him.

2. He was looking after the best interests of his daughter. But LĂșthien was no doormat: she could think for herself. She loved Beren, and she knew the consequences of her proposed actions. Thingol did not take his daughter's thoughts into account though. He became stubborn, and would not listen to his own daughter.

Indeed, the Quest was useful (as Tolkien said), but the decision to send Beren to his death was wrong.


I like that last quote of yours, Finduilas. :)
If only Thingol had acted the same way as Celeborn...it would have been much more 'right'.
 

Snaga

The Usual Suspect
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
5
I know this doesnt contribute to the debate very much but I have to just point this out:

In my opening post I said:
Our opponents will doubtless argue that the recovery of the Silmaril was a great achievement that would never have happened without Thingol's action.
But Manuveru rebukes, in stinging fashion:
The opposing team put some suppositions (totally missed IMHO) as to what would be our "course" of debating (are you guys playing oracles or just guessing... ).
But look... Finduilas now posts:
1.Earendil used the Silmaril for the safety of Middle Earth.
Ahhhh!!!!! Vindication.... I love it!:D

(I'll actually reply tomorrow!;) )
 

Anamatar IV

Anabadger
Joined
Aug 15, 2002
Messages
3,833
Reaction score
3
Location
Connecticut, USA
- It lead to the ruin of Doriath and the death of Thingol himself.
Posted by Snaga

Just because The Quest was one of the pieces of the ruin of Doriath, that is not to say it was the whole reason for it. Melian, Queen of Doriath cautioned Thingol that peace would not last in Doriath forever YEARS before the War of the Jewels began!

§22 Now Melian had after the manner of the Maiar; the people of Valinor, much foresight. And when two of the ages of the Chaining of Melkor had passed, she counseled Thingol that the Peace of Arda would not last for ever
Morgoth’s Ring

I don’t imagine I need to waste your time with quoting just who Melian, Maia Queen, was.;)


Indeed, the Quest was useful (as Tolkien said), but the decision to send Beren to his death was wrong.
Honestly, now, how wrong was it if it was preordained? Is Death among Men wrong? It causes not just death, but death to an entire species’ population!!

As for the Quest being preordained:

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred
and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief
it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could
befall would be that death should soon end it.'
Morgoth’s Ring

Spoken by Finrod. We all know who Finrod is, but I think we could use a reminder to see exactly who he is.

Finrod (son of Finarfin, son of Finwe) was the wisest of the
exiled Noldor
, being more concerned than all others with
matters of thought
(rather than with making or with skill of
hand); and he was eager moreover to discover all that he could
concerning Mankind.
This guy was no hobbyist, he was a Mannish lore master.;)


Lets look at the quote Finrod spoke involving the union between an Elf and Man.
'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred
and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom.
~Keep that in the back of your mind
Brief
it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could
befall would be that death should soon end it.'
Morgoth’s Ring

Was the marriage between Beren and Luthien brief? Was it hard at the end? Did death soon end it?

YES! Straight from the hand of the Professor himself:
Finrod thus was slain before the two marriages of Elves and
Men had taken place, though without his aid the marriage of
Beren and Luthien would not have come to pass. The marriage
of Beren certainly fulfilled his prediction that such marriages
would only be for some high purpose of Doom, and that the
least cruel fate would be that death should soon end them.


The marriage of Beren and Luthien, though not specifically mentioned, was prophesied by the wisest of the Noldor in Beleriand, by the Elf most learned of Men.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred
and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom.
That sounds like something preordained to me. Things in mythologies aren’t doomed lightly.;)


But wait
there’s more!

#1
And when Thingol heard all that had befallen them, his mood was softened, for he was filled with wonder at the love of LĂșthien and Beren, and perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world.
#2
Beren and
Luthien together had achieved the greatest of all the deeds
against Melkor: regaining one of the Silmarils.
#3
Earendil reached Aman, even in
the time of the Ban; but he bore the Silmaril recovered by his
ancestress Luthien,(18) and he was half-elven, he was not
allowed to return to Middle-earth. Beren returned to actual life,

#1. First off, Thingol was moved to pity and love for Beren. And as Aule so plainly pointed out, Thingol was very prejudice towards the race of Men
but second and more importantly, “their doom could not be withstood by any power of this world.” Can there be any doubt in your mind after this quote that the Quest was not sporadic and foreordained?

#2. The greatest of all deeds
ponder those words for a few minutes while thinking of all the deeds done against Melkor. Think of Fingolfin and Hurin and Finrod, of Barahir, Earendil, and Turin. This one deed by Beren and Luthien surpassed them ALL!

#3. Compare the two deeds of Earendil and Beren. One saved Beleriand and brought an end to Morgoth’s malice. Another Commited Petty Theft against him. Yet the person that saved Beleriand wasn’t allowed to return to Middle-earth whereas the little crook returned to life





CLEARLY this quest for preordained, can there be any doubt about that? Something preordained cannot be considered as wrong. Eru’s actions weren’t arbitrary. And, as stated in the Osanwe Kenta, since Manwe was Eru’s right arm in Arda, The Vala’s decree was also that of Eru’s. Now how can something decided upon centuries earlier by THE ONE be wrong?

All unlabeled quotes are from Morgoth's Ring
 
Last edited:

Aulë

The Larrikin
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
2,988
Reaction score
6
Location
Perth, Australia
Once again, the GoT have decided to talk about the outcomes of the quest, not about the motives behind Thingol's decision. What we are debating is the decision-making process that Thingol went through in his decision to propose a task to Beren.

Now, from Anamatar's posts, I got the feeling that he was trying to say that Thingol was right because marriage between Elf and Man can only be brief. But as I have already said, LĂșthien already knew of the consequences of a marriage with Beren, and was prepared to make that sacrifice. She was prepared to have a few years of bliss with Beren, rather than an eternity without him.

The marriage of Beren and Luthien, though not specifically mentioned, was prophesied by the wisest of the Noldor in Beleriand, by the Elf most learned of Men.
No, it was not prophesised.
If you look at the quote, you'll see that he is saying if there is a marriage. He did not say there will be a marriage between Elf and Men, and he certainly did not say that there would be a marriage between Beren and LĂșthien.

OK, on to Matar's little quotes:
#1. First off, Thingol was moved to pity and love for Beren. And as Aule so plainly pointed out, Thingol was very prejudice towards the race of Men
but second and more importantly, “their doom could not be withstood by any power of this world.” Can there be any doubt in your mind after this quote that the Quest was not sporadic and foreordained?
Yes. Thingol knew that a marriage between Elf and Man would be brief; but so did LĂșthien, and she still was prepared to marry Beren. Was it right for Thingol to deprive his own daughter of her greatest desire? No way.

#2. The greatest of all deeds
ponder those words for a few minutes while thinking of all the deeds done against Melkor. Think of Fingolfin and Hurin and Finrod, of Barahir, Earendil, and Turin. This one deed by Beren and Luthien surpassed them ALL!
There you go again about the outcome rather than the decision. :rolleyes:.

#3. Compare the two deeds of Earendil and Beren. One saved Beleriand and brought an end to Morgoth’s malice. Another Commited Petty Theft against him. Yet the person that saved Beleriand wasn’t allowed to return to Middle-earth whereas the little crook returned to life

Your point being?:confused:
 

Beleg

Fading
Joined
Jan 10, 2003
Messages
1,473
Reaction score
1
EEP!

The Venerable guild GOP posted in their opening post; a summary of their main claims.
Their first claim was,

The reasons come down to this: that Thingol selfishly attempted to thwart the love of Beren and Luthien, in a manner that he believed to be devious. But this scheme failed in its design, in that it didnt prevent the union of Beren and Luthien. Moreover it put in motion events that lead to the ruin of Doriath, and the death of Thingol itself.
Firstly Thingol could never have ‘thwarted’ the love between B&L, since it was based on a foundation so strong that nothing could come between it; so to claim that Elu Thingol ‘selfishly’ attempted to thwart their result is absurd. Thingol was never selfish when it came to the love between them. Why would he be selfish? He had no reason to be selfish; he only cared for LĂșthien, for LĂșthien was not some common elvish beauty. She was of a great and royal lineage, even possessing the blood of one of the great Ainur’s; the angelic spirits of power. She was beautiful; the most beautiful of all maidens ever on the earth.

Shibelloth of Feanor: People of Middle-earth

. Since LĂșthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of LĂșthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. (LĂșthien was through her mother, Melian, descended also from the MĂĄyar, the people of the Valar, whose being began before the world was made

She was a precious treasure, and not everyone was worthy of taking her hand in marriage. One had to prove his worth to seek her. LĂșthien herself knew it, if she hadn’t known it she was have eloped or would have married Beren secretly, but she wanted the blessing of her beloved father, according to the Laws and Customs of the Eldar. Our opponent argue that LĂșthien was greatly in love with Beren and it was unfair and selfish of Thingol to send Beren on the Quest. I, kinds Sirs, would like to point out, that since LĂșthien was emotionally involves with Beren, we can’t possibly ask her to think objectively about Beren. Thingol couldn’t just have given LĂșthien’s hand to Beren, since Beren was a Man, and he was a complete and total stranger for Thingol. How would Thingol have known about his worth? Whether he was good enough and worthy to marry his beautiful daughter. A most logical procedure would be send Beren on an errand, on a trial, on a quest, where he could prove his worth and prove that he was good enough to marry LĂșthien. We should also consider that Beren was a man, not an elf, and before this aforementioned case, their had never been any mention of a marriage between an Elf and Man. For a Man to marry an Elf-princess it needed something extraordinary, something not done before and the Quest of the Silmaril was an ideal event. This was an unsual occurance and some High purpose was working there as this quote from Athrabeth Andreth Ah Finrod points out,

Finrod thus was slain before the two marriages of Elves and Men had taken place, though without his aid the marriage of Beren and LĂșthien would not have come to pass. The marriage of Beren certainly fulfilled his prediction that such marriages would only be for some high purpose of Doom, and that the least cruel fate would be that death should soon end them
And certainly a high purpose was achieved through this Quest. A Silmaril was recovered, which eventhough brought forth many woes for the Elves and their allies, men, in the end became the essential element in Earendil’s quest and from saving the Edain, Noldor and Sindar from anihiliation.
A smiliar case is the union between Arwen and Aragon which took place latter in the third age.
My dear friend says that this ‘scheme’ [A highly unapt word since {In a way} Beren brought this Quest upon himself.] brought forth the ruin of Doriath.

This marriage was constituted for a higher purpose of doom, to regain something that would ultimately be the savior of Elven-kind. If not for this Quest, the Silmaril would never have been recovered, Earendil would never have been able to reach Aman and Elves and Men would have been completely annihilated. It didn’t prevent the union of Beren and LĂșthien because Beren proved himself worthy, of the hand of LĂșthien, if it had not been so, this union had never come into being.
This point of GOP, thus remains void. ;)

Our opponents will doubtless argue that the recovery of the Silmaril was a great achievement that would never have happened without Thingol's action. But he never intended Beren to succeed. Quite the reverse - he never expected to see Beren alive again. We should honour Beren and Luthiens for their deeds, not credit Thingol for his deviousness.
GOP go criticizing Thingol for his so called deviousness. It is not deviousness. It is simply the wish to see his lass with someone who is worthy of her and less insolent; [As Beren was to Thingol, such insolence!] Beren has not proved himself to be worthy of LĂșthien.
But the fact is that It all started by Thingol’s actions; he constituted the plan, pushed by some higher purpose, some higher order. The high purpose coupled with his love for LĂșthien, and his determination [Rightly so] to find someone worthy of LĂșthien gave Thingol every right to impose the Quest on Beren.

This point of a higher purpose and set doom needs some pondering and an explaination is needed. Myths Transformed: Morgoth’s Ring tell us,

Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come


 The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind.
One gets the notion that Valar [Especially Manwe] had some foreknowledge of how the events would unfold and he infact might be the driving force behind the unfolding of events. The Quest of recovering the Silmaril [Since it would be a great blow to Morgoth] could also be partially instituted by Manwe, for a much higher purpose; to bring forth the destruction of Morgoth.
The wise and calculating mind of Manwe would have reasoned out that such a Quest would be of manifold advantages all revealing themselves in the long run. It would be a perfect morale boaster for the Elven Kind and would help to raise their spirit and they would possibly be able to hold out Morgoth longer and further weaken him.
Elves and Men were made two separate races and they were encouraged to remain that way. To bring forth a union between them, some really high purpose need to be present and this blessing should only be granted to one who proves himself worthy.

Perhaps too they will say it was instrumental in allowing the Voyage of Earendil to succeed, and thus the intervention of the Valar that finally defeated Morgoth. But this argument, while superficially appealing, doesn’t stand up. Why? Because these event, long after Thingol’s time were the achievement of the descendents of Beren and LĂșthien, whose marriage he aimed to prevent. They were far after his time, and concern matters which he had never consciously tried to influence.
One could ask when Gondolin was wrought, did Turgon knew what part he would play in the final battle? Did he consciously try to influence his part? And yet he is praised for being the father of Idril Celebrindal of whose seed was Earendil the blessed. Were all the others who are praised for their actions and deeds, blessed with the foreknowledge of future? None were! The tale unfolds according to the actions of the participants even if they are not completely aware of their roles. Your supposition even though cunningly wrought fails to hold in the light of facts and solid conjecture. ‘Your’ long after the time of Thingol spans only a brief period of thirty to thirty five years.

Thingol had always tried to stay out of the Wars of the Noldor. But his action, in laying the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren, meant this was no longer viable. The consequence of the Silmaril arriving in Doriath are well known: the war with the dwarves, and the attack of the sons of Feanor.
GOP accuse us of going off topic yet I fail to see what ‘staying out of the Wars’ has to do with Thingol’s decision? Which wars are you talking about? Doriath was located in the Middle of Beleriand with the Noldor on the North who did the bulk of the fighting along with the first two house of Edain and Liaquendi who sometimes got into an occasional squabble or two. Till Nirnaeth, Doriath never got the chance or felt the need to go to war against Morgoth’s forces. And these events took place before Nirnaeth. The consequences of the arrival of Silmaril in a long run are also known: Earendil’s voyage to Aman and saving of Elves and Edain.
 

Beleg

Fading
Joined
Jan 10, 2003
Messages
1,473
Reaction score
1
erm!

But more fundamental than all this we will show that Thingol's attitude to Beren was unjustified and unwise. He sought to send Beren to his death, for the 'crime' of loving his daughter. For a man who was a valiant elf-friend to be treated in this way cannot be condoned.
Ahha!!
Before condemning Thingol lets glance at Beren’s attitude and words in the court of Menegroth,

'My fate, O King, led me hither, through perils such as few even of the Elves would dare. And here I have found what I sought not indeed, but finding I would possess for ever. For it is above all gold and silver, and beyond all jewels. Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms, shall keep from me the treasure that I desire. For LĂșthien your daughter is the fairest of all the Children of the World
Hehe! So dear Beren is virtually asking Thingol to send him to any errand, make him undego any test, to give him the hand of LĂșthien. Proud words, aren’t they? And proud words said to proud King Thingol [Who had, unlike Beren, a right to be proud, he was the High King of Beleriand and also a hundred other reasons which Beren was an unknown stranger on the mercy of Thingol]. Note Beren himself says that LĂșthien is the fairest and places her above all the object of the world. This shows her worth. Not even the most precious ornaments could vie with LĂșthien’s hand. Beren is asking the hand of Doriath’s most precious possession and is willing to undergo all the difficulties in the world to get her. Some insolence and huge pride, but in this case, who can blame Thingol for sending Beren on the Quest of acquiring a Silmaril since in Beren’s own words ‘this is nothing!” ;)

Firstly, Thingol’s imposement of the Quest of Simaril on Beren was not all unjust or unwise. Secondly, he didn’t want to send him to his ‘death’ because the crime of loving her daughter, but because he was asking the hand of his precious daughter and willing to undergo any difficult to get her. An Elf-friend would never speak with Thingol in the words he spoke to.

It was wrong to try to thwart the love of Beren and Luthien.
He never thwarted the love. He never asked LĂșthien to stop loving him and he provided valid justification for all his actions.

It was wrong to treat Beren like a criminal, and to try to send him to his death.
Get your conjecture straightened out. Since Beren had unlawfully entered Doriath, without the prior permission of the King and ruler he was to be regarded as a criminal and should have been punished. Apparantly Beren himself didn’t think that he was being sent to death, or he wouldn’t have offered to undergo any trial and difficulty. GOP should think more before posting such monotonous and wrong arguments.

It lead to the ruin of Doriath and the death of Thingol himself.
Yup, also led to the saving of Beleriand and all the Elven and Edanic races contained within. Also led to the marriage of Earendil and Elwing, also led to the foundation of NĂșmenor, also led to the beginning of the domain of Men and on and on and on


Thingol's intentions came to nothing.
Thingol got the Silmaril and was satisfied with Beren. Hehe!

Any good that came out of it was in spite of Thingol, and not because of him.
Lol! Perhaps you have forgotten that it was Thingol who allowed Beren LĂșthien’s hand even though he hadn’t been able to bring the Silmaril to him directly. He did that because Beren showed his bravery and proved himself worthy and showed that he really loved LĂșthien and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Aule.

Interesting...interesting....
It is amazing how selective quoting makes it seem that way.... Beware, judges, as the Tolkienologists are trying to make fools out of you by taking Tolkien's words out of context.
Perhaps we should 'fill in the gaps', and reveal what Thingol was really thinking? Hmmm?

Of Beren and LĂșthien


But Daeron the minstrel also loved LĂșthien, and he espied her meetings with Beren, and betrayed them to Thingol. Then the King was filled with anger, for LĂșthien he loved above all things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into his service. Therefore he spoke in grief and amazement to LĂșthien; but she would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him.




[/QUOTE[:



Of Beren and LĂșthien

But Thingol spoke slowly, saying: 'Death you have earned with these words; and death you should find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of which I repent, baseborn mortal, who in the realm of Morgoth has learnt to creep in secret as his spies and thralls.'
[/QUOTE]
Selective Quoting! What the heck! So trying to prove one’s point through suitable Quotes is now regarded as Selective Quoting! Wow! GOP seems to be playing cheap. GOP claims to fill in the gaps but only provide two ‘snipped’ quotes that incidently work against themselves.

Remember, Beren had entered Doriath without the permission of Thingol and that was a crime.

Originally posted by Aule,

But under no circumstances was he prepared to allow LĂșthien to marry Beren, and he became angered at Beren's words and regretted his oath, so he got around his promise by sending Beren on a quest which appeared to be impossible/suicidal to prevent Beren from marrying LĂșthien.
Can you prove, Respected Sir, that he was not prepared to allow LĂșthien to marry Beren ‘under any circumstances’. How then, may I ask was LĂșthien married to Beren? Hmmm
 Beren’s pride was overwhelming and insolence great. Beren probably didn’t knew court manners. He was talking to Thingol as he was his equal. Thingol was just [for the most part and where it matters] in addressing Beren the way he did.
And GOP seems ignore the simple fact that Beren called for it. He was ready to undergo any trial/test, to do anything to get LĂșthien, who was above all things. Thingol just obliged him.

Manveru seems to think that the given task was a 'trial' of sorts, to see if Beren was worthy. I think not.
You think wrong. It was a trial since Beren thought he could overcome even the pits of Angband. Besides Beren cannot be judged on the same scale as that of armies of Noldor.

The wise Sindar of Doriath perceived this, as did the Ainur Melian.
Not Melian. Re-read Melian’s words carefully before saying this. She is just presenting two different situations, each of which is equally probable and possible.

Thingol had been cunning, and had seemingly gotten rid of Beren, whilst keeping his promise to LĂșthien. As Thingol states, he would not give up his daughter for any treasure (including the Silmaril). So why would he apparently exchange his daughter for the Silmaril? It seems as if Thingol sent Beren on a quest which would claim his life. If Thingol had thought that Beren could retrieve the Silmaril and return with it to Menegroth, he would not have traded his daughter for it, even if Beren was the only one in the world who could have snatched it from Morgoth's grasp. Thingol even says that he would have killed Beren (and broken his oath to LĂșthien) if there was a chance of him returning.
Again a simple question arises here after viewing this lengthy curses, Why did Thingol then allow Beren to marry LĂșthien?

This last quote also adds more wood to this fire that is this debate, as it shows that Thingol brought the Doom of Mandos upon himself and his people.
True, but also contributed in saving of Elven kindered.

But LĂșthien was no fool by any means. She would have known of the consequences of a marriage between herself and Beren. But she was prepared to make that sacrifice.
And here comes fatherly consent,

From Of Laws and Customs among the Eldar

Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace);but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party.
According to this if Beren had been an elf, Thingol would not have a great right to stop his marriage with LĂșthien. But unfortunately Beren was a man, and this made the case singular and I believe in this case, the consent of the father became of foremost importance. [Bear in the mind the similar case of Aragon and Arwen, with Arwen being an Elf and Aragon being a Man and Elrond laying a price; the Kingship of the Kingdoms in Exile for the hand of Arwen].

********
 

Beleg

Fading
Joined
Jan 10, 2003
Messages
1,473
Reaction score
1
erm!

Thingol should have respected LĂșthien's decision. That would have shown true love to his daughter.
Instead, he threw her opinions out of the window, and decided for himself what her 'best interests' were. But were they? No.
Thingol was not right to impose the quest apon Beren. He was being over-protective, and virtually sent Beren to his doom to do so.
Perhaps he could have pleaded with LĂșthien to think of her future, as to prevent the marriage, yet spare Beren's life? And perhaps he did, to no avail?
But either way, his decision was wrong. LĂșthien had accepted the price of marrying Beren, and Thingol should have realised this.
Thingol also had to keep in mind that in this singular case, was the supposed groom good enough for the hand of LĂșthien? This would have shown true love and sincerity for his girl.
You are correct, he sent Beren to his doom. And his doom was to regain the Silmaril. Right on the trot man! LĂșthien didn’t know of the price of marrying Beren; a marriage between Elf and Man was unheard off; the consent of father needed to be gained; since there was no precedence of a likewise occurance before, LĂșthien would have no awareness of the effects and results of this marriage. LĂșthien did love him, but she would not have married him without her father’s consent.

Once again, Tolkienologists taking things out of context....
Periaur’s have a knack of assuming
assuming too much for their own sake.

I hope I don't have to put up with this for the rest of the debate. I would expect better from the Tolkienologists.
Who cares what you expect! For it matters you are only trying to show off.

Just because Thingol disliked Men, doesn't make it a right decision to send Beren to his doom. In fact, his discrimination against Men makes it even more wrong.
Thingol dislike for men was rational. He had prophetic dreams and he perhaps worked out that Men would work out much mischief in the forthcoming days. [Which they did; sadly]. Thingol’s decision to impose the quest on Beren was correct.

And a debate does not just consist of one crucial point.

Please read my posts before picking out the bits you like, and jumble their meaning next time.
It becomes quite tiresome having to repeat myself.
Someone sure likes following on the insolent footsteps of Beren. ;)

Perhaps it would be better if you refrain from snipping and put up some thoughtful and valid arguments.
All your arguments thus far are based upon the point that Thingol disliked Beren which is not related to whether Thingol was right or wrong in sending Beren on the Quest.

Some posts are so full of themselves.

But of course not enough to let her make her own decision based on her own feelings though
Bravo! This case was a singular one, and was Beren worthy enough for the hand of LĂșthien?

Even though Thingol states he doenst put a price on LĂșthien's head, he just did!
You are giving supposition preference over direct statement. He named her bride price, not head price.

Some father, he just promise that if he had the Silmaril he would give up his daughter, that is NOT love, but greed fed by greater greed!
Because Beren would prove himself to be capable and worthy enough for the hand of LĂșthien. The main purpose in Thingol’s mind was that whether Beren was good enough for his daughter or not. He was and should have been angry after hearing Beren’s proud words [it would also be quite to shock to see that a mortal [their was no love lost between him and men] vying for the hand of his daughter. He would naturally have become angry and said some harsh things butcooled down as the time passed.

The fact is that Thingol became aware that the doom of LĂșthien and Beren was a separate one and unique and their love was great; he had no way of knowing it back when he met Beren for the first time but Beren’s heroics and LĂșthien’s sacrifices proved to him that Beren was good enough for her.

As for Snaga's vindiction, It was your prestigious partner Aule who suggested that a debate might have more then one 'central' themes.
 

CelebthĂŽl

Loremaster
Joined
Oct 2, 2002
Messages
2,413
Reaction score
3
But is appears that Thingol is the only one who thinks his daughter is the most precious thing, but many if not all Fathers think this about their daughters. You dont see them demanding the "prospective groom" to go for a romp off to hells door to proove himself, they sit down have a talk, get to know each other and get on (or not) after that!

LĂșthien did love him, but she would not have married him without her father’s consent.
So tell me, what age is it that they can get married without asking for concent?

Thingol dislike for men was rational. He had prophetic dreams and he perhaps worked out that Men would work out much mischief in the forthcoming days. [Which they did; sadly]. Thingol’s decision to impose the quest on Beren was correct.
Of course he can stop all the mischief by getting this one man who is there for a reason beyond his control to die. :rolleyes:

Bravo! This case was a singular one, and was Beren worthy enough for the hand of LĂșthien?
He loved her, that qualifies in itself. Have you ever been inlove Beleg? You would understand if you had been. . .

You are giving supposition preference over direct statement. He named her bride price, not head price.
I don't know about you, but i would rather get to know my perspective son-in-law, over giving him up for an item. :rolleyes:

Because Beren would prove himself to be capable and worthy enough for the hand of LĂșthien. The main purpose in Thingol’s mind was that whether Beren was good enough for his daughter or not. He was and should have been angry after hearing Beren’s proud words [it would also be quite to shock to see that a mortal [their was no love lost between him and men] vying for the hand of his daughter. He would naturally have become angry and said some harsh things butcooled down as the time passed.

The fact is that Thingol became aware that the doom of LĂșthien and Beren was a separate one and unique and their love was great; he had no way of knowing it back when he met Beren for the first time but Beren’s heroics and LĂșthien’s sacrifices proved to him that Beren was good enough for her.
Or just maybe, Thingols shear hatred for Men, led him to want Beren to die, and that he NEVER planned on giving up LĂșthien to him (a lowly Man) or anyone else, be it Fingolfin or even a Maia.

So dear Beren is virtually asking Thingol to send him to any errand, make him undego any test, to give him the hand of LĂșthien.
But he never said "Thingol, send me on this stupid quest" or anything of the like, he did NOT ask to go on the quest, mearly he stated that those things would not stop him from LĂșthien!

Get your conjecture straightened out. Since Beren had unlawfully entered Doriath, without the prior permission of the King and ruler he was to be regarded as a criminal and should have been punished. Apparantly Beren himself didn’t think that he was being sent to death, or he wouldn’t have offered to undergo any trial and difficulty. GOP should think more before posting such monotonous and wrong arguments.
Get your conjecture straightened out now!

He did NOT intentionally enter Doriath, he didn't even know he had, it was destiny that allowed him to enter it!

Yup, also led to the saving of Beleriand and all the Elven and Edanic races contained within. Also led to the marriage of Earendil and Elwing, also led to the foundation of NĂșmenor, also led to the beginning of the domain of Men and on and on and on

Lets not view "what it caused" as Thingol didn't know what the repercussions were.

Thingol got the Silmaril and was satisfied with Beren. Hehe!
Only because of the promise he made, i bet that Thingol and Beren never drank beer on the couch together infront of the superbowl, as most fathers and sons inlaws would do. :rolleyes: They probibly never even spoke afterwards ever again.

Can you prove, Respected Sir, that he was not prepared to allow LĂșthien to marry Beren ‘under any circumstances’. How then, may I ask was LĂșthien married to Beren? Hmmm
 Beren’s pride was overwhelming and insolence great. Beren probably didn’t knew court manners. He was talking to Thingol as he was his equal. Thingol was just [for the most part and where it matters] in addressing Beren the way he did.
And GOP seems ignore the simple fact that Beren called for it. He was ready to undergo any trial/test, to do anything to get LĂșthien, who was above all things. Thingol just obliged him.
Again he never actually asked for it, but he was no way going to turn it down was he!

[/quote]Again a simple question arises here after viewing this lengthy curses, Why did Thingol then allow Beren to marry LĂșthien?[/quote]

Exactly! He would NEVER have let Beren marry LĂșthien, but he was an honest man (elve) and would stand by his word, (which he did).

According to this if Beren had been an elf, Thingol would not have a great right to stop his marriage with LĂșthien. But unfortunately Beren was a man, and this made the case singular and I believe in this case, the consent of the father became of foremost importance. [Bear in the mind the similar case of Aragon and Arwen, with Arwen being an Elf and Aragon being a Man and Elrond laying a price; the Kingship of the Kingdoms in Exile for the hand of Arwen].
You may believe what you want, doesn't mean it's true!

Firstly Thingol could never have ‘thwarted’ the love between B&L, since it was based on a foundation so strong that nothing could come between it; so to claim that Elu Thingol ‘selfishly’ attempted to thwart their result is absurd. Thingol was never selfish when it came to the love between them. Why would he be selfish? He had no reason to be selfish; he only cared for LĂșthien, for LĂșthien was not some common elvish beauty. She was of a great and royal lineage, even possessing the blood of one of the great Ainur’s; the angelic spirits of power. She was beautiful; the most beautiful of all maidens ever on the earth.
Yup, but she was her own Elve, no one elses, not Thingol's or even the Man Beren's.

She was a precious treasure, and not everyone was worthy of taking her hand in marriage.
I'd say one that loved her as much as Beren was worthy of her, and it's her call, NOT Thingol's!

And certainly a high purpose was achieved through this Quest. A Silmaril was recovered, which eventhough brought forth many woes for the Elves and their allies, men, in the end became the essential element in Earendil’s quest and from saving the Edain, Noldor and Sindar from anihiliation.
A smiliar case is the union between Arwen and Aragon which took place latter in the third age.
My dear friend says that this ‘scheme’ [A highly unapt word since {In a way} Beren brought this Quest upon himself.] brought forth the ruin of Doriath.

This marriage was constituted for a higher purpose of doom, to regain something that would ultimately be the savior of Elven-kind. If not for this Quest, the Silmaril would never have been recovered, Earendil would never have been able to reach Aman and Elves and Men would have been completely annihilated. It didn’t prevent the union of Beren and LĂșthien because Beren proved himself worthy, of the hand of LĂșthien, if it had not been so, this union had never come into being.
This point of GOP, thus remains void.
Still you go on like Thingol or anyone else could forsee what was to become of the quest. But no, not one being (aside from maybe Melian) on ME could forsee it.

One could ask when Gondolin was wrought, did Turgon knew what part he would play in the final battle? Did he consciously try to influence his part?
Good point. . . oh wait, no it isnt, he was visited by a Valar who told him to build it, Thingol was never told by anyone to send Beren on that quest!
 

Beleg

Fading
Joined
Jan 10, 2003
Messages
1,473
Reaction score
1
Important!

But is appears that Thingol is the only one who thinks his daughter is the most precious thing, but many if not all Fathers think this about their daughters.
Get your facts straightened out. Not only Thingol but lover, Beren himself thinks that,

'My fate, O King, led me hither, through perils such as few even of the Elves would dare. And here I have found what I sought not indeed, but finding I would possess for ever. For it is above all gold and silver, and beyond all jewels. Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms, shall keep from me the treasure that I desire. For LĂșthien your daughter is the fairest of all the Children of the World.'
. You dont see them demanding the "prospective groom" to go for a romp off to hells door to proove himself, they sit down have a talk, get to know each other and get on (or not) after that!
In which case the prospective groom is very happy to undergo any exercise, any quest to attain the fairest being. You have to realize that Beren and Thingol possessed two very different statuses. One was an escaped man, helpless and possibly hapless while the other was the glorious king of a great Kingdom. Thingol’s fame was widely spread among all the dwellers of Beleriand while Thingol in the guarded realm of Doriath probably knew nothing of Beren and his deeds. [Which no doubt were valiant] Consider Beren’s position: He had entered Doriath without the consent of King Thingol and could thus be regarded as a criminal. He had fallen in love with LĂșthien; which is not a sin. But he had asked for LĂșthien’s hand, even though he was a human and no one before had heard of such a union. This had taken the things out of the usual sphere for the event in itself was a singular one and Beren himself recognised that; as is shown by his words aforequoted. Bearing in mind their positions and their ranks, it was not possible for them to ‘sit down to talk and know each other!” [We are talking about Planet Earth but Arda where customs were different from the world we are living in]. The relative difference in their statuses made it impossible for them to treat eachother as equal. In Middle-earth, it is apparent that Hands of the Daughters in special cases were given according to the worth of the suitor.
Indeed they had a talk, but Beren’s proud words spoken arrogantly to a Mighty king in his own halls would have rilled anyone, so it was natural for Thingol to feel any anger over them. Periaur base ‘Thingol’s dislike of Beren’ as the central argument of their motif. Thingol did dislike Beren, certainly at that time, but this does not mean that he was wrong in sending Beren on the Quest.
The point is that Beren had to prove himself worthy of winning LĂșthien’s hand and that he could only do by achieving some real amazing feat. His haughty words, spoken in a proud manner showed that he was ready to do anything to gain LĂșthien, meaning he was ready to embark on any quest; how much difficult it may be. Thingol had wanted the Silmaril and this was an ideal chance of trying to gain it; for this fellow [Beren] claimed that he would do anything to attain his daughter [he specially mentions daring even the cold dungeons of Angband] so what better then to send him on the quest, to find one great jewel to attain one even greater, that would not only prove Beren’s valour but LĂșthien would also get a husband who was totally fitting for her, even if he was a man. Sure, a dislike of Beren was also at work here, but this dislike was not inherent, but was created by Beren’s acts and words.
For one thing Thingol didn’t knew the extent of their love, such a union could only have been allowed if the love and doom of the couple was unique and the Quest proved that it was. Once Thingol found out the worth of Beren, the extent of his valour and Beren’s love for his daughter, he precieved that Beren was the right man for his daughter
and this happened due to the Quest. No Ulterior motif on Thingol’s part worked here, he might have been a tad harsh with Beren, but it was fitting to send Beren on the Quest of Silmaril even if his initial dislike of Beren was working in it.

So tell me, what age is it that they can get married without asking for concent?
Please read my posts completely. Elven women could marry their sweethearts [Even if the parents were unwilling] provided that the lover was an elf, after the age of fifty, but in the case of a union between elf and men, it is conjectured, for the lack of an explaination that it was upto Bride’s father to decide the affair [As was done by Thingol in LĂșthien’s case and Elrond in Arwen’s case.]
She would also haven’t married him for she would have intended to get the blessing of her father and the rest of the Kingdom.

Of course he can stop all the mischief by getting this one man who is there for a reason beyond his control to die.
The point being
?

He loved her, that qualifies in itself. Have you ever been inlove Beleg? You would understand if you had been.
We are talking about Arda not planet Earth, Celebthol. There were certain requisites of the wedding [As are even there in this world, if you would care to look around a bit] and not everyone could claim LĂșthien’s hand. And how was Thingol to know whether Beren loved her or not? Sure, everyone can speak up and claim their love but one had to do a certain act to prove their love. We are not talking about every Mary, Jane and Anne but someone who in Earthen terms would be an equal of the daughter of the King of Britian in the 19th Century.

I don't know about you, but i would rather get to know my perspective son-in-law, over giving him up for an item
We are talking about the royal customs of Middle-earth, Beleriand which I believe are different from the 21st century trends of England.

Or just maybe, Thingols shear hatred for Men, led him to want Beren to die, and that he NEVER planned on giving up LĂșthien to him (a lowly Man) or anyone else, be it Fingolfin or even a Maia.
Hatred! Sheer! Prove to me where it is said that Thingol possessed a ‘sheer hatred’ of Men. Why then did he gave her eventually to Beren, a lowly man when he was able to prove his worth and love.
 

Beleg

Fading
Joined
Jan 10, 2003
Messages
1,473
Reaction score
1
Important II

But he never said "Thingol, send me on this stupid quest" or anything of the like, he did NOT ask to go on the quest, mearly he stated that those things would not stop him from LĂșthien!
Yes, these things won’t stop him and these were such a low prices for the hand of the Elven King’s daughter, so might as well going going and attain them
;)

Get your conjecture straightened out now!

He did NOT intentionally enter Doriath, he didn't even know he had, it was destiny that allowed him to enter it!
Now whose the dork! My conjecture is right on the spot but I would like to ask was Beren, son of Barahir, vassal of the King so weak in the geography of Beleriand that he didn’t even know where Doriath was situated and that by crossing Nan-Dungothreb he was entering Doriath? Seems mighty strange and highly unlikely! Destiny is not a solid entity, it may be said that some higher power then the magic of Melian allowed him to enter, but the fact remains: he entered without the prior permission of Thingol and he would really have been a nerd if he didn’t knew he was in Doriath.

Lets not view "what it caused" as Thingol didn't know what the repercussions were.
Then how can his actions regarding the Silmaril be blamed for the fall of Doriath?????

Only because of the promise he made, i bet that Thingol and Beren never drank beer on the couch together infront of the superbowl, as most fathers and sons inlaws would do. They probibly never even spoke afterwards ever again
So did they talk in brail language when they set the details for the wolf hunt or conversed during the hunt?
Exactly! He would NEVER have let Beren marry LĂșthien, but he was an honest man (elve) and would stand by his word, (which he did).
Exactly, since he did that he showed he bore no real Malice to Beren or he would never have done that..;)
You may believe what you want, doesn't mean it's true
Only for you. For the people it matters, it may turn out to be correct.

Yup, but she was her own Elve, no one elses, not Thingol's or even the Man Beren's.
Point being?

I'd say one that loved her as much as Beren was worthy of her, and it's her call, NOT Thingol's!
Well, If it was her call then why bother taking the whole affair to Thingol and then sticking by his decision? They could easily have eloped and married, why bother going through all this mess????

Strange are the thoughts of Periaur’s to Men!

Still you go on like Thingol or anyone else could forsee what was to become of the quest. But no, not one being (aside from maybe Melian) on ME could forsee it.
Did you honestly read what I was talking about? My points are clear cut and based upon quotes I presented in my earlier posts. I never say that Thingol could forsee or foresaw anything [Perhaps except the shadowy Prophectic dreams]. So don’t try to put words into my mouth which I never even uttered. :eek

Good point. . . oh wait, no it isnt, he was visited by a Valar who told him to build it, Thingol was never told by anyone to send Beren on that quest!
I posted,

One could ask when Gondolin was wrought, did Turgon knew what part he would play in the final battle? Did he consciously try to influence his part?

So I never doubted or negated that Turgon wasn’t visited by a Vala. My point is did he knew what high purpose will Gondolin eventually serve in the events of Beleriand? No! So nice try of waylaying but wont work. ;)
 

CelebthĂŽl

Loremaster
Joined
Oct 2, 2002
Messages
2,413
Reaction score
3
Yes, these things won’t stop him and these were such a low prices for the hand of the Elven King’s daughter, so might as well going going and attain them
;)
Not too small, would you go to the bowels of hell to steal the a jewel off the devils crown and call it a "low price"? It was 50/50 that he would never even get to marry his love or even see her again! Not that small a thing really.

Now whose the dork! My conjecture is right on the spot but I would like to ask was Beren, son of Barahir, vassal of the King so weak in the geography of Beleriand that he didn’t even know where Doriath was situated and that by crossing Nan-Dungothreb he was entering Doriath? Seems mighty strange and highly unlikely! Destiny is not a solid entity, it may be said that some higher power then the magic of Melian allowed him to enter, but the fact remains: he entered without the prior permission of Thingol and he would really have been a nerd if he didn’t knew he was in Doriath.
Well seeing as he had never even seen Doriath before, neither did he have a map or anything of the area ( :rolleyes: ), so how was he supposed to know about it? All he knew was that no one could get into Doriath, because of the Girdle or Melian.

Then how can his actions regarding the Silmaril be blamed for the fall of Doriath?????
Because Melian told him before he sent Beren on the quest! As i posted earlier, he brought himself and Doriath into the fate of the Silmarils, from which once you enter it, there is no getting out of it!

So did they talk in brail language when they set the details for the wolf hunt or conversed during the hunt?
Im talking about after on good terms, just because they wanted to get along.

Only for you. For the people it matters, it may turn out to be correct.
Maybe, but that still doesnt mean it will, i would put anything on a "maybe".

Point being?
Basically the point to win us the debate. Thingol had no right to send anyone on the quest to make sure they were suitable for his daughters hand in marriage, it was her call! No one elses!

Well, If it was her call then why bother taking the whole affair to Thingol and then sticking by his decision? They could easily have eloped and married, why bother going through all this mess????
Because that stupid minstral Daeron told Thingol about Beren and LĂșthiens meetings, they didnt go to him out of there own free will, for a good reason!

I posted,

One could ask when Gondolin was wrought, did Turgon knew what part he would play in the final battle? Did he consciously try to influence his part?

So I never doubted or negated that Turgon wasn’t visited by a Vala. My point is did he knew what high purpose will Gondolin eventually serve in the events of Beleriand? No! So nice try of waylaying but wont work. ;)
Yes you did, and i replied to that :rolleyes:, but Turgon was visited by Ulmo who told him to raught (sp) Gondolin, naturally he agreed to, regardless of the outcome. Thingol thought up this "quest" (more like a punishment), in a very short time, on his own, without any Valar!

Get your facts straightened out. Not only Thingol but lover, Beren himself thinks that,
I dont understand this statement. . .

[he specially mentions daring even the cold dungeons of Angband]
Not really especial at all, but just the most dangerous and terrifying thing he could think of.

he might have been a tad harsh with Beren,
Thank you, point proven and admitted by the GoT.

Thingol was harsh on Beren, therefore he was not just in sending Beren on this task.

Need more be said to prove this?

Please read my posts completely. Elven women could marry their sweethearts [Even if the parents were unwilling] provided that the lover was an elf, after the age of fifty, but in the case of a union between elf and men, it is conjectured, for the lack of an explaination that it was upto Bride’s father to decide the affair [As was done by Thingol in LĂșthien’s case and Elrond in Arwen’s case.]
She would also haven’t married him for she would have intended to get the blessing of her father and the rest of the Kingdom.
In the truest of love cases this would not apply, if Thingol had utterly forbade them to marry, then they would have run away and done it anyway.

The point being
?
Did you not see the roll eyes? I was being sarcastic, there was no way Thingol could stop the mischief of Men by stopping this marriage!

We are talking about Arda not planet Earth, Celebthol. There were certain requisites of the wedding [As are even there in this world, if you would care to look around a bit] and not everyone could claim LĂșthien’s hand. And how was Thingol to know whether Beren loved her or not? Sure, everyone can speak up and claim their love but one had to do a certain act to prove their love. We are not talking about every Mary, Jane and Anne but someone who in Earthen terms would be an equal of the daughter of the King of Britian in the 19th Century.
Im pretty sure love is exactly the same in both worlds, as is hate, anger, pride etc. . .
I see your point, but it is wafer thin, just because it is fround upon, doesnt mean it will not go ahead!

We are talking about the royal customs of Middle-earth, Beleriand which I believe are different from the 21st century trends of England.
Again its the same as above.

Hatred! Sheer! Prove to me where it is said that Thingol possessed a ‘sheer hatred’ of Men. Why then did he gave her eventually to Beren, a lowly man when he was able to prove his worth and love.
Because he is an honest man (elve), he will stick to his word, or else hes no better that the vile scum or Morgoth.
It states that he was not fond at all of Men in the Sil. We all know he is. It would have been no skin of Thingol's nose if Beren had died in the pits of Angband!
 

Snaga

The Usual Suspect
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
5
In a debate of this type I find myself torn between competing objectives: to rip into the opponents position with as much venom and rhetorical gusto as can be mustered, and secondly to shed some real light on the topic in hand. There is a third, and often forgotten point as well: to keep the reader interested. So I'll try to avoid self-indulgence, but there is sufficient to be said that I can't hope to be brief so instead I'll try to keep my points pertinent and guide you through them as best I can.

I want to try to deal with my opponents points clearly and fairly. My team mates hoped I would deal with them 'orc-fashion' but whilst fun to blatantly assail the opposition its usually not the best way. So despite the sarcasm of Beleg, I'll try not to retaliate. The best way I can think of to do this is to first summarise those points as best I can, and then I will incorporate my responses into a wider discussion which I hope will be of more interest than a tit-for-tat point scoring session.

Lets get those points listed out, before I then lay out how I propose to discuss the wider topic. Obviously many of these points are repeated, but I'll only lay out them once.

Manveru says:

(1) Thingol loved his daughter very much and sought to protect her, from a suitor who he didnt believe to be worthy of her.
(2) It was Beren who gave Thingol the idea of the quest.
(3) The quest was a test of Beren's worth, and a fair one in view of the 'prize' (ie Luthien).

Manuveru later adds:

(4) That Thingol had no personal desire for the Silmaril
(5) That Beren had earned Thingol's anger with his attitude.

Finduilas then adds a new line of argument:

(6) That the quest was 'useful' or historically important. In that:
- It successfully lead to the retrieval of a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown
- Other goods things came out of it (their love, death of Carcaroth, Finrod fulfilled his oath, Beren earned Thingols mercy etc)
- Ultimately, Earendil took the Silmaril to Valinor and attained their intervention in the war against Morgoth.

Anamatar makes the following points:

(7) That Melians prediction of the downfall of Doriath proves that the attainment of the Silmaril was not to blame for its destruction.
(8) That the quest was pre-ordained, and therefore it cannot have been wrong for Thingol to impose it.
(9) That ultimately Thingol was moved to pity for Beren, and changed his mind
(10) That the quest was the greatest ever achievement in the War of the Jewels (and beyond?)

Beleg finally tells us:

(11) Because Thingol didnt succeed in thwarting the love of Beren and Luthien, this means he didnt try.
(12) That Luthien was too emotionally involved to think objectively about Beren
(13) That because unions of Men and Elves are only supposed to fulfil a higher purpose of doom, that Thingol's actions caused that higher purpose to come about.
(14) That the Quest was foreseen, and in part instituted by Manwe and viewed as a tactical morale-boost for the elves
(15) That Thingol should be praised for consequences of his actions even if he didnt intend them
(16) Beren was unlawfully in Doriath, and deserved to be punished.
(17) Parental consent was required amongst the Eldar to marry
(18) Luthien didnt know the 'price' of marrying a Mortal (ie her own death)
(19) Thingols dislike of Men was rational, based on prophetic dreams
(20) Thingol's dislike of Men was not 'inherent' but due to Beren's pride

As you can see there are many points here, and it will take some time to tackle them all. Some I will just strike down as plain silly, but not too many. Others I will accept, but since they are not at all at odds with the Periaur account of this matter they don't prove anything.

Firstly the trivial points:
(7) The fact that Melian foresaw that Doriath would fall doesnt mean that the Silmaril WASN'T to blame for it. The presence of the Silmaril clearly played a central role in the ruin of Doriath: it is this that first the dwarves and then the sons of Feanor come to Doriath to fight for.

(11) This is bizarre. Thingol clearly made an attempt to thwart their love... he was obviously against their union!

(12) It seems silly to me to dismiss Luthien's own desires in a question of marriage. The Eldar have never had arranged marriages.

(14) There is NO evidence to suggest that Manwe had any influence over the quest for the Silmaril. This suggests a fundamental lack of understanding of the role of the Valar. They did not have the power to manipulate the actions of the Children of Iluvatar. They could seek to persuade them, often without much success. To think that Manwe had a hand in this is plain absurd. The misleading analogy, that Tolkien says that the Valar may have allowed Earendil to succeed doesnt work at all. The Valar had the power to allow or bar people from entering Valinor, and in this way could allow Earendil to succeed. There is no similar mode of intervention in the Quest of the Silmaril.

And the point that we will accept is:
(4) That Thingol had no personal desire for the Silmaril. I don't think any of us are arguing that lust for treasure was Thingol's main motive. There is one version of the tale that Tolkien wrote that suggests it as a factor, but its not present in the published Silmarillion, so the Periaur are happy to leave this one alone. There are plenty of other reasons why Thingol's actions are wrong...

So now let us organise the remaining and more salient points and make sure we cover all the bases.

There is the matter of customs concerning marriage. (3, 17, 18)
There is the matter of Beren's actions in Doriath (2, 5, 16)
There is the matter of Thingol's motives (1,9,19,20)
There is the matter of consequences and fate (6, 8, 10, 13, 15)

So these are the areas I will cover, and I hope I can do each of them justice.

Customs Concerning Marriage

As Beleg correctly posted, it was customary to seek the consent of the parents of both parties to a marriage. We should be clear of course that this was the custom amongst the Noldor in Valinor, since the account given is based on a discussion of the marriage of Finwe and Miriel. We cannot say with certainty that the same held in Doriath, but neither is any other account available. Now Beren* perhaps doesnt put his desire to marry in the best possible language, but at least he does put it to Thingol before going ahead with the union. Even so, there is the caveat that amongst adult elves, if they wish to wed in haste they can forgo parental consent. It is striking that nothing is said of consequences of a match not being approved... it is by implication a very rare event. Indeed, the Valar debate amongst themselves why it is that some love is not requited amongst the elves, seeing it as an unforeseen grief. Surely love blocked by the parents of those in love would have been worse? This is not even mentioned as a possibility, suggesting that parental consent may well have been more a courtesy than a major hurdle amongst the Eldar.

Of course, nowhere is it suggested that putting some kind of quest, or proof of worth was EVER a custom amongst the Eldar. So if Thingol imposed the quest as a proof of worth, as the Tolkienologists claim, this is against custom. But we will later show it was worse than this: that it was a death sentence by another name. Either way, Luthien's desire is not considered, and this is clearly something that would have been deemed grievous by the Valar.

Is this some deviation, justified because Beren was a man? Perhaps it will be of interest to note that in the very first version of the Tale of Beren and Luthien, told in the Book of Lost Tales, Beren was not a man but a Gnome (Noldor). In this account it is told that Thingol 'glancing at the wild and rugged aspect' of Beren, bursts into laughter and imposes the quest.
Then all in that place knew the king treated the matter as an uncouth jest.
So the very earliest conception shows Thingol judging by appearences, and treating Beren with contempt. Luthien's desire in the matter isnt given serious consideration in any of the accounts: the quest is imposed in spite of tradition, not because of it.

Lets now look at Beren... [continues in next post]

*Edited Typo: "Beleg" changed to "Beren", Paragraph "Customs Concerning Marriage"
 
Last edited:

Snaga

The Usual Suspect
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
5
Beren's Actions in Doriath

Firstly we know that Beren's presence is not legal. He has come within the Girdle of Melian, and Doriath is meant to be closed to his kind. Does this warrant a death sentence? Now certainly it is not the case that Beren came there without knowledge of what he was doing. That can be read from the text. We know he has committed no further ill than entering Doriath, but there doesnt seem to be any particular 'standard' punishment for this crime. Of course not, because the Girdle of Melian has kept out every other intruder. So Beren must trust to Thingol's wisdom in imparting justice. But Thingol doesnt impart the quest because Beren entered illegally. Lets move on...

When he arrives before the throne of Thingol he was* awestruck by the splendour of Thingol at first, until Luthien speaks up on his behalf. When at last he speaks he has already been called a thief, and accused of insolence and folly. He has been shown little respect. His words in reply are proud. It also
seemed to him that words were put into his mouth
as though fate is playing a hand here. But does he 'put the idea in Thingol's head', or indeed almost suggest it himself? He says
Neither rock nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-Kingdoms keep me from the treasure that I desire.
What is he talking about? He has just passed through the Mountains of Terror (rock) escaping from orcs and the like (steel), after serving in the Battle of Sudden Flame (the fire's of Morgoth), and made it through the Girdle of Melian (powers of the Elf-Kingdoms). This is not an invitation to be sent on a quest! It is an account of his recent past.

If they are proud, they are also inspired by Fate... by the will of Eru. The Periaur will show that we are quite comfortable with this point later on. But lets not condemn Beren for his words. He was not first to anger or pride here! And even if he was, does that make Thingol right to respond in kind? Is that the action of a wise king? Making judgements in anger is not right, so let us not make any excuses based on this. Next we will consider in more detail what was really going on in Thingol's head.

Thingol's motives

We have already seen that in the very earliest version of the tale Thingol acts on Beren's dishevelled appearance, and treats him with scorn.

In the Lay of Leithian, this reference to appearance goes. Now Beren is no longer a Gnome, but a man and Thingol's reply is:
'Death is the guerdon thou hast earned
O baseborn mortal, who hast learned
In Morgoth realm to spy and lurk
like Orcs that do his evil work
So the motivation now becomes his race. He believes all humans to be untrustworthy. He accuses Beren of spying and lurking like an orc despite his daughter's previous explanation that he is a man of honour. This not just or wise.

In the 'Earliest Silmarillion', the sketch of the Mythology published in HoME 4, it describes Thingol response to Beren thus:
Thingol, in mockery, requires a Silmaril from the Crown of Morgoth.
In mockery... still no wisdom or justice. It is clear that Tolkiens intention was never to show Thingol in a good light in his treatment of Beren.

Can it nonetheless be justified?

Now Thingol was indeed troubled by dreams about the Coming of Men that lead to him having what may be considered a prudent policy of keeping Men out of Doriath. But a policy that deals with Men in general, is not the same as justice in the case of the individual. Faced with one who has strayed into his realm despite the Girdle of Melian he still has to deal justly. He has the testimony of his own daughter, and the ring of Felagund (his close friend) to tell him that Beren was worthy of respect. But he shows him little respect at all. The closest he comes is to promise reluctantly to avoid summary execution or imprisonment.

But when Beren declares his love for Luthien he regrets this. He imposes the quest.
And all about perceived that Thingol would save his oath but send Beren to his death.
Everyone who knows Thingol best knew this was about sending Beren to his death. It is not a test of Beren's worth (which as I have shown would have been unique amongst the Eldar). Thingol himself is quite explicit:
And if there was any hope that Beren should come ever back alive to Menegroth, he should not have looked upon the light of heaven, though I have sworn it.
He was absolutely certain that Beren would go to his death, and would have killed him, despite his oath, if he thought that the Quest was achievable.

He calls Beren a 'baseborn mortal' and insults him despite his worth amongst the race of Men. This shows he was prejudiced against Men. Whatever his misgivings about them in general, there is not any justification for a death sentence. Arbitary death sentences are the province of Morgoth, not his foes. He may have deep concerns about the Race of Men but he goes against the customs of the Eldar, and any conception of natural justice, and even against the recommendations of his daughter and his good friend Finrod in so doing.

Finally we see that Thingol eventually repents of his actions. This doesnt, as the Tolkienologists claim, make his previous actions OK. Rather it is the final piece of damning evidence that he was wrong: his own realisation of the fact.

So all of this is goes to show that taken as a question of the incident in Menegroth itself, Thingol was wrong. As I foresaw at the outset, our opponents go on to say that great good came out of it, and thus the end proves him to be right. So lets look at that.

Consequences and Fate

Firstly I want to explain again my original point. Thingol can be asked to account for his decision in terms of those things that were his province. He is the King of Doriath, and so if his decisions prove bad for Doriath and its people, then we can say it was a bad decision (or conversely if it proves good). This is the case even if those consequences are inadvertent. But inadvertent consequences on matters outside his general sphere of influence, particularly if they were unforseeable... those he can take neither blame nor credit for.

Thingol had no claim to the Silmarils and knew that they were a matter of great peril. By involving himself in their fate he imperilled his realm. And so it turned out. Melian herself saw this immediately.

Now, as both sides have said, the hand of fate was at work. The Quest was 'meant to happen'.

Does this prove that Thingol was right?

Iluvatar says:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
So Eru's own word on the subject is that those who do evil will see that in the end a greater good will come from it. It is simply not the case that because some good comes of an action, that makes it right. Time and again this is a feature of Tolkiens writing.

Does not Gandalf say the very same thing of Saruman, when he kidnaps the two young hobbits and brings them to Fangorn, only for this to trigger the march of the Ents?

A great deal of good comes of the quest. But it is not because Thingol's intentions came true. Thingol intended the death of Beren. Despite this, Beren succeeded, and he wed Luthien. Thingol's intentions were wrong, but they failed. Beren survived, he and Luthien won the Silmaril, and so Thingol's evil redounded to Eru. But it was still wrong.

Conclusion

I hope I have shown that in every account Tolkien wrote Thingol's actions are clearly portrayed as wrong, and to try to say otherwise is to miss a greater truth in Tolkiens work. He disregards his daughters wishes, the customs of the Eldar and natural justice, and wishes only to send Beren to his death. Ultimately the quest succeeds, despite Thingols wishes and he comes to repent his former attitude. And this shows a recurring theme of Tolkien's creation: that out of evil, great good can come. The good result doesnt justify the evil, it shows that none can alter the Music in Eru's despite. To try to say that Thingol is right is to undermine the very foundation of the mythology that Tolkien created.



*Edited Typo: "was" added in second paragraph
 
Last edited:

Thread suggestions

Top