I must say, I am a little perplexed by the vagueness of the question. If this relates to the entire History of Arda, then I feel it is an immeasurable and impossible task, for both sides. If it relates to moments of 'devine intervention' then how do you quantify or qualify such interventions, if indeed they even exist? Even for those scholars who have debated Eru's influence in Arda previously, it has ever proved inconclusive.Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?
Of course. Isn't that always the case?Is every document produced by Tolkien fair game in this debate?
Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda. Why is that? It is because Ilúvatar is God and he can't be wrong. Simple.Was Ilúvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?
Arda Unmarred is Arda without the evil influence of Melkor. It exists only in concept.But even the Elves had the notion that this would not be so: that the end of Men would somehow be bound up with the end of history, or as they called it 'Arda Marred' (Arda Sahta), and the achievement of 'Arda Healed' (Arda Envinyanta). (They do not seem to have been clear or precise - how should they be! - whether Arda Envinyanta was a permanent state of achievement, which could therefore only be enjoyed 'outside Time', as it were: surveying the Tale as an englobed whole; or a state of unmarred bliss within Time and in a 'place' that was in some sense a lineal and historical descent of our world or 'Arda Marred'. They seem often to have meant both. 'Arda Unmarred' did not actually exist, but remained in thought - Arda without Melkor, or rather without the effects of his becoming evil; but is the source from which all ideas of order and perfection are derived. 'Arda Healed' is thus both the completion of the 'Tale of Arda' which has taken up all the deeds of Melkor, but must according to the promise of Ilúvatar be seen to be good; and also a state of redress and bliss beyond the 'circles of the world'.)
We as readers may think that the Valar (Manwë) were foolish to free Melkor after his imprisonment in Mandos, but Manwë did the right thing. The greatness of Ilúvatar comes from the fact that he works through his creations. It will be ultimately the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar that will make Arda a better place in the end.Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always
I think that this raises an interesting point. I can't control what the judges have read. Some may feel confortable or not with quotes from works they haven't read.A quick request from a judge to Maedhros: can give a fuller citation for that 2nd quote please. Thanks
That is just funny.Originally posted by Maedhros
Ilúvatar was sufficiently involved in Arda. Why is that? It is because Ilúvatar is God and he can't be wrong. Simple.
Again, a statement and a quote that should shut all doors on any further discourse on the topic raised.no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
Might not sound like much, until he continues:What really happens, is that the story-maker proves a succesful "sub-creator". He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is "true" : it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from the outside.
Quotes taken from the Andrew Lang Lecture, delivered at St Andrews on 8 March 1939.Every writer making a secondary world wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it.
When he did this, Ilúvatar trusted that the Valar would rule over Arda the exact way he wanted it to be run. But this did not happen:Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will?
Quote taken from the same piece of writing.Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it
So even Sauron believes that Ilúvatar doesn't care anymore. That does say a lot about the sufficiency of the involvement of Ilúvatar.Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more
What then are we debating? Are we debating something that happened outside or inside of this secondary world? Obviously it being the latter. This point is invalid because we are not debating something outside of Arda even the debate question itself says "Was Iluvatar sufficently involved in Arda" or something to that effect. This point is invalid.Therefore: God is only perfect because the Sub-creator (ie. Tolkien) writes the way he does, and because the Scholars believe that what is written is that Ilúvatar is flawless.
You do this by failing to provide context. Look at the lines above:Eru answered: Have I not given to the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substance thereof, to shape it at their will under My will?
What then has Eru just done? He has involved himself with Arda once again. This point I also propose to be invalid.Eru Answered: Let the houseless be re-housed!
Manwe answered: How shall this be done?
Eru answered: Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. Or let the naked fea be re-born as a child
It was not if Ilúvatar was involved in Arda.Was Iluvatar sufficiently involved in Arda, or was there more that could have been done on his part?
B) That the Valar was not sufficiently involved in Arda, as is said by Ilúvatar:As we all know, Ilúvatar delegated the ruling of Arda to the Valar.
C) That this caused Sauron to believe that Ilúvatar didn't care about Arda anymore:though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier
And we all know what came from that, didn't we?He (Sauron) probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more
Even their lastdemiurgic kind of action was at the best a mistaken one. Why?The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'. The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range of the Pelori to a great height. It is possible to view this as, if not an actually bad action, at least as a mistaken one.
While all this happened, where was Ilúvatar? Not sufficiently involved with Arda, thats for sure.Thus the 'Hiding of Valinor' came near to countering Morgoth's possessiveness by a rival possessiveness, setting up a private domain of light and bliss against one of darkness and domination: a palace and a pleasaunce (well-fenced) against a fortress and a dungeon.
Well, you might think what you want, but I follow what the author himself was talking about.Originally posted by baragund
Keep in mind this is a work of fiction (although I wonder if some folk in this forum believe otherwise ). ]U]I think Arvedui's position may be more applicable to writings of non-fiction.[/U]
He hoped that they might be found to be 'true.'He made a good many points in the lecture, perhaps too many for an entirely cogent argument. But at the end he asserted in powerful terms that there is no higher function for man than the 'sub-creation' of a Secondary World such as he was already making in The Lord of the Rings, and he gave expression to his hope that in one sense this story and the whole of his related mythology might be found to be 'true'.
I think there is quite a long way between asking questions about the flawlessness of Ilúvatar, and stating that the whole mass of texts are meaningless. And to think that this was written by the same person that thought some people on the forum might believe that Tolkien's works are not mere fiction... (see the opening quote)Are our worthy opponents from Ost-in-Edhil suggesting that the texts are meaningless because JRRT wrote them and not Iluvatar?
Just about the same as entering the quote that you did in the beginning:If statements from the texts are to be considered invalid because the author is JRRT, and not Iluvatar himself, what does this do to the fundamental manner in which all of the debates in this tournament have been conducted?
no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined