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Round 8: Ost-in-Edhil vs. Guild of Outcasts

Ravenna

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Whilst Yavanna made the Trees, it is nowhere explicitly stated that she owned them, that they were her own private property.
The Trees, and therefore, the light that they spread were more in the nature of a gift, given freely to all.
What Yay appears to be saying, to go along with the analogy idea; is that it is as if Yavanna had some sweets, gave some to others, then carelessly dropped hers in the mud and demanded the rest back.
You cannot simply demand a gift back once it has been given. Ownership, (if anyone can be said to own light) is transferred when a gift is given.

Also, the question here is 'Was Feanor right to refuse.....?', not 'were his reasons right?'
We have admitted that Feanor's state of mind was not particularly good, and that maybe his reasoning was flawed. However, as I stated earlier, it is possible to make the right choice for the wrong reasons, and this was what Feanor did. Nobody said he was a particularly nice person at the time, and certainly his reasoning was not laudable, but taking events as a whole, and looking at the end result of that decision, it was the correct one to make.
 

Confusticated

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Also, the question here is 'Was Feanor right to refuse.....?', not 'were his reasons right?'
In opening OiE used his reasons for justification, that is why I argued against them being right.

You guys now claim Feanor was right, not for his reasons, but because of the result of them and the part his refusal plays in the history of Arda. So now I will argue against that part.


Earlier I said: "The true puprose of the foresight (if there was any) and the higher purpose achieved in the refusal on the silmarils, if not the relighting of the Tree as that point in time, must be the role they play in the end when Arda is re-made. "
OiE then said:
I agree that the purpose of the Silmarils must be at the later point in time.
I said "if not the relighting of the Tree as that point in time".. which of course should have been: "if not the relighting of the Trees at that point in time" Perhaps you thought "if" was a typo for "is" as "as" was for "at". But if so, I did not say the Purpose was for the silmarils to be used many ages later, I said that must be the purpose if not the relighting the Trees at the dakrneing of Valinor. But GoO does claim that the puprose of the silmarils was to be opened many ages later in the scenario were Feanor denied them. Had he given them up, their purpose and the scenario would be otherwise.

Now... OiE goes on...

Therefore even if his reasons were not of the highest he was still right to refuse to give them to the Valar too early. His reasons are not used to justify his action. The fact that it was the Wrong time does that.
But was it the wrong time? Will explain more below.

..but taking events as a whole, and looking at the end result of that decision, it was the correct one to make.
and...
When he was asked to open them too early he very rightly refused.
Those OiE statement show that you claim Feanor was right due to the result of what Feanor did, since what Feanor did, denying the silmarils, will prove to have been critical in the fulfillment of Arda.

"Rightly" you say... but: Why right? Because it would be a critical event in the fulfillemnt of the fate of Arda as it happened to unfold in the scenario where Feanor denied the light?

Had he not denied the light, his having done so would not need to be taken up in the tale of Arda and used in it as it was/will be/is (hehe). It could not be used in it because it would not exist in it. Had he allowed them the light, a different tale would follow.

The problem with arguing GoO's side here is that throughout the histroy of Arda there is a series of events which seem to have been doomed, and are all at the heart of the fullfillment of the 'fate' of Arda. The unchainging of Melkor,Feanor making the Silmarils, the dakrening of Valinor, Feanor refusing the silmarils... War of the Jewels... Voyage of Earendil... all of those things... are at the heart of it.

For me to say one of those things should not have happend, or was wrong for happening, would be for me to say that 'fate' of Arda must be achieved by another route.

This event we debate about is central in the achievement of what seems to be the later Dooms. Looking back it was perfect that Valinor was darkened and Feanor refused his silmarils, and that the Noldor went back and met the Sindar and Men, but this exile of the Noldor, meeting of the Sindar and Men, and the war of the jewels, were only necessary because Morgoth was still out there.
If feanor had chosen to hand the silmarils over, how might things have happend? The possablities have no end. The best GoO can do it suggest how it most likely would have gone given what we know.


Morgoth would have been taken care of much sooner if Feanor had said yes. As OiE mentioned, the Valar would have went after Morgoth to get the silmarils had Feanor said they could have them. Then the Sindar would live in peace, so would Avari and Men for the most part. So the peoples of Middle-earth, all of them, would have been better off... Morgoth would be back behind bars. But it gets better...

The simple fact is that if the Silmarils were used to allow Valinor to have once more the light of the Trees it would have meant the Valar had no reason to make the Sun and the Moon. They were too content with the way things were in Aman.
They had been content in the past... before the darkening. The darkening, even if iit had been healed by the rekindling of the Trees by the Silmarils, may have been the thing to remind the Valar of the rest of Middle-earth. But that doesn't even matter as much as this: Men were coming, Men needed to come with the Light.

Men had to come with light. Men had to come. Therefore the Valar had to give light. We can not know for sure how they would have done this.... perhaps lamps like the ones of old...or maybe a Sun and Moon. But there is no way around it, Middle-earth would get light. If it was light that came from Trees that were healthy having been healed by the silmarl light, then the Sun in the sky would be untainted... which means that a holy light would pour down on Middle-earth all the time,healing the hurts of Morgoth. This holy light shining down on the earth healing it, would be the same holy light to do so according to the prophecy which exists in the scenerio where Feanor denied the silmarils at the dakrening of Valinor. The difference is that it would happen much sooner.

PS: Beth hasn't answered about me editting my first post... so if it is okay with OiE I would dare to do it anyhow with your permission. You guys have read my posts and if you look them over after I edit, you will know that I didn't try to sneek some excellent new arguement into it. :D
 

YayGollum

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Ack! No, I don't remember reading any book saying that these trees or the light in them was some Valar type's property. I'm just using common sense. This creepy and evil and unfair and magical power is part of somebody. Ick. I hate magic. Power has to do with magic, yes? Mel was running out of the stuff and got weaker. Yavanna used up a lot to make the trees and couldn't come up with enough to remake them. She asked for the powerful type light back. It came from her in the first place. I guess you could say that it belonged to her in the first place, but I don't often say that my thumb or dead skin cells belong to me. They're a part of me. just like that light seems to me to be. It's pretty clear to me, but maybe I'm just crazy.

I don't think that the candy analogy helps me very much. I mean, I don't think that it works as well as my skin cell idea. :rolleyes: You call the Yavanna lady careless due to the fact that some big and scary spider sucked her trees to death? I'm thinking that the lady dropping some candy is a little different. oh well. Sure, you could call the light a gift, just like the priviledge of getting to see my cut off arm, but the light and the arm are still part of some people. Argh.
 

Gothmog

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Morgoth would have been taken care of much sooner if Feanor had said yes. As OiE mentioned, the Valar would have went after Morgoth to get the silmarils had Feanor said they could have them. Then the Sindar would live in peace, so would Avari and Men for the most part. So the peoples of Middle-earth, all of them, would have been better off... Morgoth would be back behind bars. But it gets better...
GoO agree that there was a good chance that had Fëanor said yes the Valar would have gone after him straight away to regain the Silmarils to re-light the Trees. They also claim that this would have been for the good of Arda, the Sindar, the Avari and Men.

But is this so? Let us look at the thoughts of Tolkien himself.
From Myths Transformed
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.(8)
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand.
So far from improving things the Valar chasing after Melkor at that time could well have caused the destruction of the Sindar, the Avari and Men unborn along with Arda itself. It would certainly have prevented Men from achieving that "Fullest achievable stature" therefore weakening them. As things stood the Valar attacked at the right time. Had Fëanor said yes they might have launched this attack too soon trying to regain the Silmarils.


P.S. I certainly have no objection. After all I suggested it on behalf of OiE. ;)
 

Confusticated

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As the years went by Tolkien made the Valar less and less wrong.. and more all-knowing, less mistaken...and with very high intentions... at lot more so then had originally. So it is not far fetched to believe the Valar had timed this out.... but... It doesn't really fit in this case.

Do you believe the gods had it set up... wanted the Noldor to rebel and go through such ruin for that purpose?

I do not.

If so, why is it that when the hosts of the Noldor were setting out, the Valar believed that Feanor would not hold sway over them?

Because they did not (except probably Mandos) know that the Noldor would end up making it to Middle-earth.


What if the Noldor had not rebelled... or very few had done so? Then what would the Valar do? If we take that idea of Tolkien's, then a lot of things do not fit. If Noldor had not returned to Middle-earth (and they went willingly.. so there was always a chance they would not have) then what? The Valar just let Morgoth take over? Men could not stop him and most would have been used against the Eldar in Beleriand. Only the Sindar of Doriath and the dwarves would have been armed for such a fight, and even then they would stand no chance against Morgoth. It would be so easy to whoop them that Morgoth would have ended them before he spent as much power as he ended up doing with the Noldor.

If Feanor said yes and the Valar chased down the silmarils, then men would never have had that shadow which the Noldor helped them overcome in part. Morgoth got into it with Ungoliant and it didn't ruin Middle-earth... and he was in such trouble that his balrogs had to save him. He would have been fighting at his strongest at that moment when his life was in danger... but didn't break Middle-earth.
 

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ahhhhhh!!

nmo no no!!!
ahahah help help!!1
2 minuts left and i just saw Gothmog at whos onlien rpelying help help help!!!
hsahahahaha
ppanic pianciiicic P A N I C!!!
 

Gothmog

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Morgoth got into it with Ungoliant and it didn't ruin Middle-earth... and he was in such trouble that his balrogs had to save him. He would have been fighting at his strongest at that moment when his life was in danger... but didn't break Middle-earth.
Morgoth was fighting with Ungoliant for different reasons than he war with the Valar. The Valar were trying to prevent him from taking over Arda. Ungoliant was trying to take the Silmarils from him.

Had the Valar attacked him his responce would have been "If I cannot have it, neither can you!".
 

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