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Round 9: Guild of Outcasts vs. Guild of the Periaur

Elfarmari

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I'm glad to be able to host this debate between the Guild of Outcasts and the Guild of the Periaur!

As the Guild of the Periaur are currently finishing their round 8 debate, I would assume they would like to wait a few days. I submitted an idea to Maedhros, hopefully I will either have that ok'd or find another topic in the next few days.

Could the guilds please post their teams as soon as they are ready?

[disclaimer: this is my first time hosting, so if I make a mistake please feel free to correct me]
 

Aulë

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We are ready to start whenever you want. We are young and energetic, so we can handle two debates in quick succession :D

Here are the four ruffians for this debate:
- Aule the Aussie
- Snaga the Orc
- Legolam the Lush
- Celebthol the Idiot ;)
 

Snaga

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Let me explain. He was calling you an idiot!;)
 

Confusticated

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I'm on the team. I'll go out on a limb and put YayGullom on the team as well... We may not be able to fill the other spots, but there's a fair chance that when/if we do, it will be people who are not able to post in the tournament anyhow. For this reason, if you want to, you can go ahead and give the topic and we will go with Yay and I. I don't mind at all, and I doubt Yay does either... often it is just him and I who debate anyhow. I think Periaur will be okay with this?

NĂłm
NĂłm?
YayGollum
YayGollum? :D

If this isn't okay, then we'll have to wait, but it might be a long wait.
 

Elfarmari

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Judging from the lack of objection, I will assume the Periaur are ok with the teams.

I believe the Outcasts have the right to choose their side?

The judges so far are:
Gothmog for Ost-in-Edhil
Lhunithiliel for the Tolkienologists
reem for neutral
Omnipotent_elf for the Eruhini
and myself for Guild of Scholar's Hall

Assuming everyone is ready, here is the topic.

Morgoth's Ring
Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
Would the Eldar of Aman be untainted or is this taint something inherent in the Children of Iluvatar?

If you wish to have anything clarified, please let me know.

The debate will end one week from the opening post.

editted to add judge
 
Last edited:

Snaga

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Well, that should reduce the participation level right down! Thol and Legolam don't even have Morgoth's Ring. Oh well... It will probably be two against one, as opposed to four against two!:rolleyes: :(
 

CelebthĂ´l

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Ahhhh, c-mon :(

Can we prospone till say, December 5th? :D

I get all the HoME for my b*day and i can read up on it then. . . I thought not :(

Ill try somehow though Snaga :( though, ill be very little use here *sigh*
 

Aulë

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Not to mention that I haven't read it either....
It would be Snaga v Nom.

Not much of a representation of 'inter-Guild' debating...
 

Legolam

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Hmmm, I'll try my best on this one if I have to, but if there is the choice of another topic, then that'd be grand :)

Sorry to be a bother ...
 

Snaga

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Having discussed this subject with my team, and consulted with Nom, there is a consensus that this topic is pretty much one-sided.

The quote itself tells you that "those who had bodies nourished by the hroa of Arda... were none of them free of him in their incarnate form." This would be amply demonstrable from the tales of Miriel and Feanor, and I am sure Nom would start from this position. Since one example of 'taintedness' proves the case for one side, it all looks as though there is little to be said. Having given this thought I can see no defence for this, not even quotes to be taken out of context etc.;)

Therefore I want to appeal for a new topic. Sorry to do this: I do so with some reluctance, but I do feel that questions need to give both sides a chance. In our last round, the topic was one-sided but luckily our opponents chose the wrong side. I don't hold out any hope of Nom doing the same! No doubt the Periaur will look bad as a result... :(
 

Elfarmari

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ok, sorry. I was generally thinking this would be more of a logic debate rather than a text-based debate, discussing whether this tendency toward evil was an inherent part of the Children of Illuvatar since the Music or whether it was added later by Melkor.

Anyway, I had another topic which I thought of which I am currently submitting to Maedhros, I will get back to as soon as possible. Sorry!
 

Elfarmari

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Here is the new topic:
To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. . . A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. . . That land the Valar called Andor, the Land of Gift. . . And they [the Edain] called that land Elenna, which is Starwards; but also Anadûnê, which is Westerness, Númenórë in the High Eldarin tongue.
Was the gift of the Valar to Men of Andor after the First Age ultimately beneficial or detrimental to the Edain?
 

Confusticated

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Thanks Elfarmari

One question: If Edain should mean all men can be a debate in itself... there is some conflicting information. So, I just want to be sure if you mean all Men or just those descending from the three houses of Edain?

Or, should the meaning of Edain be up for debate here?
 

Snaga

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Thanks Elfamari. An interesting topic.:)
 

Aulë

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Oo- this should be fun :)

Nom: Judging by the quote given, I'm presuming that it is referring to the 'Three Houses of the Edain' only.
 

Confusticated

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The gift of Numenore was ultimately detrimental to the Edain. Not only because it caused the end of those people through battles and mingling with 'lesser men' (due to having become elitists), but also because it caused a once great people to become, for the most part, evil Morgoth worshippers who came to torment and sacrifice men to the darkness... and eventually lose all that they had gained.

Why did the Edain come to an end?

1) Most went down aftering attempting to attack the gods.

This would obvious not happen without Numenor.

Of the few faithful who survived:

2) Arnor struggled because it didn't have enough people.

There may be no Arnor... surely not one as we know it, if not for the Numenorean remnants.... but there would be a much greater number of men in Middle-earth and we can guess as to where their major realms would be located and who would rule them... but the point is there would be more Edain.

3) Many of the Gondorian Dunedain were killed off in kin-strife caused by racism.

There would be no racism against so called 'middle men' had the Edain not become so lofty. The primary reason for the racism of the Dunedain against other men in the west was due to middle men having shorter lifespans. Shorter lifespans would not be so if the Edain had remained in Middle-earth. Reason for racism gone bye-bye.

4) There was mingling with 'lesser' men.

These 'lesser' men would hardly be lesser if the Edain didn't become Numenoreans.

Then of course there was the battle of Dagorlad, and attacks headed up by Sauron such as the ruin of Arnor, and invasions of Easterlings and attack on Gondor from the South, and from Mordor.

Let's look at how probably would have gone if the Edain remained in Middle-earth.

The Northmen 'lesser men' who were devistated in Sauron's attacks several hundered years into the second age, were men of the same group from which came the House of Hador. They simply never made it into Beleriand. They were no friends of Morgoth. They had had a long time alliance with the Longbeards which ended when orcs filled the mountains and Moria was cut off. They were ruined and scattered. Had the Edain remained in Middle-earth these would have been one people, these men later dubbed 'middle men' by Numenoreans would not have been so far below them.

Sauron fooled the elves of Eregion, and when they discovered him he attacked and wiped them out pretty good. Bye-bye Ost-in-Edhil... BUT if Middle-earth had been full of Edain, these too would have continued to increase in skill, especially in the making of weapons... this can be assumed since they'd be friendly with dwarves and elves who together reached the highest level of smithcraft. Sauron would have had a much harder time attacking Eregion if lots of Edain had been around, and the men of Middle-earth better armed. There were some men in Middle-earth who became unfriendly with Numenoeans. Hated them even. This because 1) the Numenorean's eventual treatment of the men of middle-earth, and 2) Numenoreans destroying forest land. Both of these things would not have happend if there had been no Numenore..... therefore we have no reason that the men in the west would have any serious conflicts or hatred between them if the Edain had remained in Middle-earth.

So, as the second age moved along we'd have friendship among all the men of the west, dwarves and elves (at least the Noldorin... those of Eregion and Lindon... and later Rivendell) probably even the elves of Greenwood and Lorien.

When Sauron struck in the second age he had little resistance... mstly the elves scattered when attacked, the few men were wiped out or scattered... therefore they lived in small tribes hardly armed or able to defend themselves. It was not until Ar-pharharizon.... came that Sauron had any serious threat. Now in the scenerio with Numenor this will obviously not happen. But it need not happen because resistance in Middle-earth to Sauron woud have been a lot more due to the population of men being much greater and in alliance with dwarves and elves. Middle-earth will have been, earlier in the second age, able to fight just as they did in the Last Alliance. The Edain may have been less skilled than those faithful Numenorean remnants were... but there would be a hell of a lot more of them... non-elitists too!
And not only would there have been a lot more men, but it is most likely that the big rush of elves who took off with their tails between their legs when things got scary in the second age would not have done so... because they'd be stronger with Edain against Sauron. Maybe there would have been no Gondor and Arnor, but there would be some kind of realms... probably a situation much like we had in the first age where men served under the elf-kings.
So, instead of there beng a few faithful Edain who return to Middle-earth and are wiped out because of small numbers, and racism... there would be a lot more of them and without racism, and we have no reason to think that all of these would have been wiped out.

There would have been thousands and thousands of Edain all over the west of Middle-earth, and in perfect harmony with those Northmen from which came the Rohirrim, and with those kin of the people of Haleth who grew to hate Numenoreans, and from which came the Dunlendings. So there you have it... all the people of the west United. Who can say what would happen with Sauron then? But the Edain would be much better off than they were worshipping Morgoth in what Tolkien calls the second Fall of Men, from which only a few escaped to wane throughout the next few thousand years.
 

Confusticated

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In my last post i said "Now in the scenerio with Numenor this will obviously not happen."

'with' should be 'without'... suppose it's obvious, but...
 

CelebthĂ´l

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I must disagree, i think that the long age was the cause of the downfall of Numenor, so ill counter your points on this. ;)

1) This was more due to the age, if they did not live so long, they would not have grown up the courage to attack the Gods, remember, each time a new person is born, they have to build up their courage, if Ar-Pharazon had not been able to live the 500 odd years that he did, he would not have invaded Valinor.

2) Hardly a fault of the gift of Numenor.

3) Again, not a fault brought about by being given Numenor, this was more due to inborn jealousy etc.

4) Again, not a fault of being gifted Valinor.

The bottom line is that the Numenoreans were explorers, they would have traveled the entire world (as they had done), and would sooner or later have discovered Valinor (my guess would be sooner as they knew to stay away from it WHEN then had Numenor), and then would have landed and invaded, trying to increase their empire as most large kingdoms do. The fact that they had Andor mearly prevented their invasion of Valinor for a time, it was most certainly NOT a bad thing to have.

Infact i will go so far as to say, it was the best thing that ever happened on Arda to the children of IlĂşvatar, it gave them the chance to flourish on their own, WITHOUT the intevention of the Valar (which the Ekves had), to which they did. They became the most powerful, and feared aswell as skillful race (for the most part), they became the most numerous in population, they defeated Sauron without having to unsheath a sword.

It was totally beneficial in my thoughts:

1) Held back the invasion of Valinor for a time,
2) Alowed Men to flourish,
3) Became the most powerful and mighty empire ever seen,
4) Conquered Sauron without even fighting.
 

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