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Round 9: Guild of Outcasts vs. Guild of the Periaur

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When did the Edain cease to be a race?

When there was not even one Dunadan left in the world?

What is a Dunadan? Is one of the Rohirrim with Numenorean blood one? How much of the defintion is cultural? Seems that it isn't cultrual at all... it's all about bloodline... so one of Rohirrim could be a Dunadan, but how much blood would they need?

I guess it is hard to say. I guess all we can say for sure is that the great majority of Edain went down with Numenor, and the few who survived dwindled in wars and mingled.

After the Downfall of Numenore, Elendil led the survivors of the Elf-friends back to the North-western shores of Middle-earth. There many already dwelt who were in whole or part of Numenorean blood; but few of them remembered the Elvish speech. All told the Dunedain were thus from the beginning far fewer in number then the lesser men among whom they dwelt and whom they ruled, being lords of long life and great power and wisdom.
From the appendix on Languages.

"far fewer in number" from the beginning. I'd say that is no more than 20 percent of the population of their realms. Then considering Arnor was wiped out and only a few of the Northern Dunedain remained, we can just go ahead and look at Gondor. Say they were 20 percent at the beginning. Now, also considering that the multiplied more slowly than the lesser men, it would only take several generations to go from being 20 down to being less than 5 percent. And that is me generous I think. Then also consider that a lot of mingling went on, especially after Eldacar (or whoever the King was that Castamir drove out), this means the percentage would be less than 5. I'm sure if someone had the time, you could get a better estimation of what the percentage, and even number of the Dunedain of Gondor was at the end of the Third Age... but what we do know is that it was a very small one. But surely your statemen that the Dunedain were "well all of Gondor" is dead wrong... and by far.

But I do not see the Edain prospering. They survived dwindling and mingling into extiction through the Third Age, and must have disapeared soon after. Is there a reason to think this is not true? A reason to think the Edain made some sort of come-back? :p

But if they hadn't been given Numenor, they would have had to settle in Middle Earth, where other types of lesser-Men already dwelt, and it would have been a formality that they inter-bred.
The Edain would have greatly out-numbered the lesser men (their long lost kin) had they remained in Middle-earth, and as the lesser men who were willing mingled into the Edain (not the other way around) they would have become Edain, Elf-friends. Just like the Two houses of Edain who entered into Beleriand years after the First house. But because there would have been so many Edain, the race would likely not have become extinct. Not only that, but they'd have been better of than having most of them turn to evil and Fall to ruin.
 

Snaga

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It seems I got a little muddled: I should avoid posting late at night. Sometimes it best to just put your hands up and admit your mistake. I'll do that. My chronology was muddled.:(

But this is not at all to concede the point I was trying to make: that events in Eriador would have gone much worse without Numenor. Firstly it seems abundantly clear that Sauron could and would have seduced the Numenoreans long before Celebrimbor had been duped. It only took 50 years at the end of the Second Age. Even if I accept they would have been more resistent in Middle Earth for the 'reasons' claimed by GOO, given free access he would have won them over far earlier.

But what if I'm wrong? Would, after the war in Eriador, Sauron have found it impossible to give a ring to the King of Numenor? Well if Ost-in-Edhil's closest ally, Durin, Lord of Moria took one, why not the Numenoreans? Lets check the Akallabeth:
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race.
So it seems the Numenoreans did NOT learn to mistrust Sauron. But, luckily, the King did NOT get suckered into taking a ring. Why not? Because he was on Numenor! Ta-da!!:)
 

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Firstly it seems abundantly clear that Sauron could and would have seduced the Numenoreans long before Celebrimbor had been duped. It only took 50 years at the end of the Second Age. Even if I accept they would have been more resistent in Middle Earth for the 'reasons' claimed by GOO, given free access he would have won them over far earlier.
But he was only able to get the Numenoreans into Morgoth worship and Valar attacking so quickly because they had already fallen back into the shadow... no thanks to Sauron.

I just thought to read the LotR appendix bit on Numenor, and found something useful. It gives weight to my claim that dwelling in Numenor was a cause of the shadow that fell upon the Edain, and to my claim that being free of outside evils and troubles contribued to the Edain turning evil in Numenor:
The realm of Numenor endured to the end of the Second Age and increased ever in power and splendour; and until half the Age had passed the Numenoreans grew also in wisdom and joy. The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King. He is was that sent a great force to the aid of Gil-galad. He loved the Eldar but envied them. The Numenoreans had now become great mariners, exploring all the seas eastward, and they began to yearn for the West and the forbidden waters; and the more joyful was their life, the more they began to long for the immortality of the Eldar.
Then of course it goes on to say that it was after after Tar-Minastir that the Kings became greedy of wealth.

But note the bit that "and the more joyful was their life, the more they began to long for the immortality of the Eldar." So this shows it was not long lifespans alone which sent the Numenoreans down the evil path, but also the joy of life in Numenor.

Also note that, "and they began to yearn for the West" directly follows "The Numenoreans had now become great mariners, exploring all the seas eastward,"... as though it were at least in part a consequence.


But what if I'm wrong? Would, after the war in Eriador, Sauron have found it impossible to give a ring to the King of Numenor?
Well, they would not have been Numenoreans... would not have been under the shadow that Numenoreans were under when Sauron was able to convince them to attack Aman. Numenoreas may have known not to trust Sauron if they had not been in their state of mind at the time, and had not forsaken friendship with the Eldar.

But if you are wrong about Sauron, then why should it have come to the making of the Rings, or if that happend, to the defeat of Eregion? The thousands of Edain would have made a huge difference in that battle.

And even if Sauron tried and failed to turn the Edain against the Eldar, would the Eldar not have learned of this and known not to trust him?
 

Snaga

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Now to reply to Nom's comments on my points relating to the first Fall, based on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

Firstly, it is good that Nom accepts that there was a fear of death present in the Edain, that didn't start in the time of Numenor. A key point.

But her defence is that Andreth is somehow exceptional, in her fear and bitterness. An interesting opinion but one not supported by the evidence. The opening to the text says of the Edain in general:
Finrod would often visit Andreth, whom he loved in great friendship, for he found her more willing to impart her knowledge to him than were most of the Wise amongst Men. A shadow seemed to lie upon them, and there was a darkness behind them, of which they were loth to speak even among themselves.
Andreth is actually exceptionally open to the Eldar, not exceptionally hostile. Moreover, she discloses:
'How or when shall healing come? To what manner of being shall those who see that time be re-made? And what of those who go out in darkness unhealed? To such questions only those of the "Old Hope" (as they call themselves) have any answer.'

'Those of the Old Hope?' said Finrod. 'Who are they?'

'A few,' she said; 'but their number has grown since we came to this land, and they see that the Nameless can (as they think) be defied. Yet that is no good reason....'
So we see that those who fear death, those who despair of death are in fact the MAJORITY!

It seems that the time of the Numenoreans living in bliss, without fear or dread of death is the EXCEPTION and not the rule. They were rewarded with this time of joy and fulfilment for their role in the War of the Jewels. It was their contact with Eonwe that lifted it from the shadow and fear for a time. The Outcast argument amounts to saying that because the Numenoreans were not unmarred by the Valar, that their reward was detrimental. But was it? Or was that time in which Men reached their zenith, the height of their wisdom and grace not worthy in itself? Does it not amount to anything in the final analysis? And was it not an inspiration that allowed Gondor to remain steadfast in its long years of defiance?
 

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As I said:
I seriously doubt you would hear Beor or Hador speak so bitterly against Eru, Valar and Eldar, and I seruously doubt that the Edain, at the time of Numenor (remember - Andreth during that conversation had no hope that Morgoth woud be defeated and she counted him lord of the world - this was a woman more under shadow than many of her people - and remember that the tale of the fall which Adanel and Andreth knew... was known among the 'wise' of the Edain... not all of them) would have haboured jealousy and such envy of the immortals.
The reason I make this distinction between the Edain of First Age and those during the time of Numenor is to aknowledge the effect of Eonwe's teachings. This did lift the shadow even more than it had already been lifted by the Eldar. Andreth was despairing about Morgoth, but of course at the time of Numenor, the Edain had clearly seen that good won out over evil.

I think you mistake my point about Andreth... it was not to say she was unlike the most of the Edain in her fear of death, but that she was exteptional in her bitterness, more bitter than average due to Aegnor. It was mostly just to add to my statement that I am not sure why she is counted wise. She does not strike me as being wise, and surely not in sense the word seems to be used in The Silmarillion. Wisdom usualy seems to refer to knowledge of the Iluvatar through the Gods, or through the Eldar from the Gods... teachings of the elves when the word is used of men... rather than having some old mannish lore. Andreth was ignorant, bitter and very cynical about the Eldar and especially Valar, despite her openess with Finrod. But perhaps I am wrong, maybe she was no more despairing or under shadow than the rest of her people... could be she was just more willing to express it, or that it seems worse to me because of Aegnor. But there is no hint anywhere they I know of, of any other of the House of Beor or even of the House of Hador being so bitter against the Eldar and Valar.

I fully acknowledge the Edain feared death all through the First Age. But I claim this fear was not so much as to cause the level of jealousy as it later did with the Numenoreans. Morgoth's failure to turn Edain against Eldar indicates this.

I can't prove this with text, but it is my belief that the reason that most of the faithful Numenoreans were of the House of Beor is that those people met Finrod first and he was among them for awhile. When they grew wiser in heart from listening to his song... the same thing that happend later with Eonwe, but less potent due to Finrod being less powerful than Eonwe.

It goes like this:

Edain fear death.

After some contact with the Eldar, the shadow is lifted some, and their life becomes longer (a thing which always go hand in hand with not fearing death).

Eonwe & Numenore... shadow lifted more than ever.

Numenoreans falls back under shadow and greater than it had been during their time in Beleriand. Probably greater than it had been since they repended out east long ago.

The Outcast argument amounts to saying that because the Numenoreans were not unmarred by the Valar, that their reward was detrimental. But was it?
I don't see how it amounts to saying that it was detrimental because the Edain were not unmarred by the Valar.


I better make a closing statement because I'm getting tired.

GoO says:

Numenor proved detrimental since it was a cause in the second fall of men which involved the destruction of Numenor and death of amost all of its people/ the Edain. Those few who were not destroyed dwindled and mingled away. And GoO further speculated that the Edain would have been much better off had they remained in Middle-earth, due having alliances with the people in the west of Middle-earth and being in such large numbers against Sauron, who we claim could not have won them over as they would not have been under the shadow.

This is how Numenor was a cause:

It was such a long time of bliss that it, like long lifespans, caused the Edain to increase to such might and skill that they grew possessive and greedy with a strong hunger for immortality. The bliss made them unhappy untimately, as it caused them to dread death even more. It was the dread of death and desire for immortality which caused the Numenoreans to come under shadow. It was because they were under shadow that Sauron was so easily able to get them to worship Morgoth again and attack Aman which brought their ruin. Not only that but Numenor was a place from where the Edain could actually see Eressea (which was a tease), and also a place where they were bound to become great Mariners... having little else to do with their long years.

That Numenor was a cause in the ruin of the Edain (which GoO thinks is probable would not have happened had they stayed in Middle-earth) we say it was detrimental to them.. and any benefits were temperary as so not ultimate, or too tiny to compete with the degree to which Numenor proved to be detrimental in the end.

The End... (will kick myself later for something I am forgetting here).

But thanks Periaur, it was a fun debate.
 

Snaga

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Here is GOO’s argument in a nutshell.
He (Tolkien) does blame the long lifespan, but not directly. It is blamed indirectly... like this: long span = greater achievements = possessive attitude & desire for more time.

GoO adds that: Age of peace in Numenor + long life = EVEN MORE achivements than would be without a long time of peace = all the better to cause hunger for more time.
This is what the Outcast want you to believe. But what else do we find?

Bye-bye Ost-in-Edhil... BUT if Middle-earth had been full of Edain, these too would have continued to increase in skill, especially in the making of weapons... this can be assumed since they'd be friendly with dwarves and elves who together reached the highest level of smithcraft. Sauron would have had a much harder time attacking Eregion if lots of Edain had been around, and the men of Middle-earth better armed.
Ahhh… so if they had STAYED in ME they would have increased in skill and knowledge too! Damn!

Surely a mistake? Well

Some of these reach Beleriand in the First Age and become Edain, While some of their kin who also repented did not reach Beleriand to become Edain/Elf-friends . As part of being Edain... these repenters grew in wisdom and their life span grew longer in Beleriand in contact with the Eldar.
Oops… it seems that contact with the Eldar was also causing exactly the same issues that would lead to the Second Fall. It seems that this fate was inescapable!

And this is really the point. Any lifting of the Shadow over the whole of Man is temporary, because of the nature of Men:

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoil of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said, ‘These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.’ Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Iluvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is in the nature of Men to fail, to fall. They are not perfect or divine. To argue that Numenor caused their Fall is mistaken.

It is one thing to describe how they fell on this occasion: Nom has described only the manner of their fall, but the cause is in their imperfect nature, in the very marring of Arda. But to claim that they would not have fallen under the Shadow in Middle Earth is to dispute the very nature of Men. The Numenoreans in Middle Earth were the ones who took the Rings of Power: hardly a sign of the up-lifting nature of Middle-Earth. All that can be said is that if they had stayed in Middle Earth the manner of their fall would have been different. There was civil war in Arnor, between Cardolan, Rhudaur and Arthedain. There was the Kin-Strife in Gondor too. Why so? Because even though these realms were set up by the Faithful, they could not escape the Shadow altogether. From Letter 156
Elendil… and his sons Isildur and Anarion… established a kind of diminuished memory of Numenor in Exile on the coasts of Middle Earth – inheriting the hatred of Sauron, the friendship of the Elves, the knowledge of the True God, and (less happily) the yearning for longevity.
It is an unfortunate truth of Men that they will often stray from the light, and that the fear of death never goes away. Alas, for Gondor and Arnor to fall into strife no period of bliss and peace was required. Evil has many ways of working, and if the Shadow fell upon Numenor, it was at least averted for a great length of time.

For centuries they grew in stature, in wisdom and in power. They reached the greatest state that Man could achieve. It was an enduring benefit: a model for the Edain to aspire to ever since, and an inspiration in dark times. This is a point the Outcasts have never managed to dent.

In the end they say that Numenor came to an end. As a result they say we should disregard all that was achieved. But when you come to the final analysis, to look for ultimate benefits, then those benefits that accrued to the Edain that knew and were part of that great civilisation must be counted.

Against all that, all those centuries of bliss and achievement, and that inspiring legacy, all we have in reply is that somehow, in Middle Earth, the Edain would escape their very nature! This would not happen, because it could not happen. And with the perils of the world upon them, and guile of Sauron in their midst you have to believe it would have been faster. Even when, in the Third Age, the Edain could no longer be deceived by Sauron they were inclined to fall into shadow, into Kin Strife.

To conclude: to think that there would be some escape from the Fall in Middle Earth is a delusion. Only in Numenor was there an escape for a time. And there, they built a civilisation whose legacy was one of inspiration to the foes of Sauron that endured, through to their eventual victory. Not for nothing did Aragorn have joy at the finding of the scion of the White Tree on the slopes of Mount Mindolluin.
 

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Umm is okay with Periaur if I post again after I said I was closing? :eek:
 

Snaga

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We really couldn't have stopped you if you'd wanted to, since the time hadn't expired! I'm glad you didn't though, as it would have forced me to reply again!:D

Looks like time is up on this debate now. Its been fun, Nom. I guess our fate is now in the hands of the judges.:)
 

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We really couldn't have stopped you if you'd wanted to, since the time hadn't expired!
I know... it's just that I didn't feel right if you guys thought it was unfair to post after what was supposed to be a closing statement.
 

Elfarmari

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According to my calculations, there are 8 more hours until the debate is up, but is entirely up to the debaters as to when they are finished. . . . I will not be able to post 'debate closed' until tomorrow afternoon, so I will trust people not to post past then.
 

Elfarmari

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sorry, that was much to obvious for me. :rolleyes: :D

Great job, everyone! I will post a judging thread in the judging forum.

DEBATE CLOSED
 

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