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Round 9: The Guild of Scholars v The Guild of Eruhini

Gothmog

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Greetings to the Shcolars and to the Eruhini, I have the honour to be your host for this round.

As the Guild of Scholars is taking part and Maedhros may be on their team I have sent a question to Ancalagon to be verified. If there is no objection to this we will use the question he accepts.

Please post your teams ready to start.
 

baragund

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Hi Guys...

Guild of Scholars will be represented by.....

Inderjit S
Black Captain
Elfarmari
Yours Truly

Per Gothmog's suggestion, Beleg has been replaced by BlackCaptain and Elfarmari. We should be all set now.
 
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Gothmog

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I am sorry but it seems that Beleg has debated for the Tolkinologists 6 times so far in the tournament. This means that he is not eligable to debate for the Scholars also.

Rule 2
d) Members of more than one Guild cannot debate for two different Guilds in the Tournament - the penalty for breaching this rule is forfeiting the match in which he played for a second Guild, with further penalties for the offending Guild under the discretion of the Tournament Organizer.
I do not wish to see any problems of this sort therefore I suggest that another member be substituted.
 

Aulë

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Gothmog: perhaps you should pester those Eruhini about getting a team together? They are holding up the debate.
 

Gothmog

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I will be doing that now. I was only waiting to see if they would post their team by the time the Scholars had theirs done. ;)
 

Bethelarien

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You know what? Maybe people should try to be a little more understanding. Maybe people should realize that we have lives outside of TTF and can't afford to give nearly every waking moment to it.

I have debated in every freaking round. I have debated alone (or nearly so) in two of those rounds. You know what? I'm sick of it. Screw this. I won't be debating anymore.

Aule, feel free to pester the GoE, they can figure out their own team.
 

Bethelarien

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I'm just fed up with everything. I'm overly stressed already, and people's lack of understanding is just the straw that broke the camel's back. No more.
 

Aulë

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Originally posted by Bethelarien
I'm just fed up with everything. I'm overly stressed already, and people's lack of understanding is just the straw that broke the camel's back. No more.
Well every other team manages to get a team in on time...:rolleyes: and because of the Eruhini (mostly), the Tournament keeps on falling further and further behind schedule.
If you can't get a team in, just forfeit the round.
 

Bethelarien

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Originally posted by Aulë
Well every other team manages to get a team in on time...:rolleyes: and because of the Eruhini (mostly), the Tournament keeps on falling further and further behind schedule.
If you can't get a team in, just forfeit the round.
You're right, Aule. Every other team does. BUT every other team also has much more support than ours. Also, there are many members of the GoE who are participating in the debates on behalf of other guilds. You can see (hopefully) how this would be rather frustrating, especially for me, as I am the "debate team captain".

Please realize, Aule, that the members of GoE are busy. We can't do everything. And I certainly can't pull off a miracle when I have ABSOLUTELY NO SUPPORT from my team.

So please, try to be a little more understanding. This is, may I remind you, GoE's first ever tournament, as we never debated before. It will take a while to get the team off the ground.
 

Scatha

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And to add to Beth's statement, especially you Aule, as a deputy guildmaster of said guild (GoE), should not be attacking our guild like this.

If you would like to rant at a guild, then rant at the one you are debating for, or to a mirror. A little more curtesy from you towards a guild you are part of, is the least we expect from you. I certainly can do without the critique, but very much resent the way it is being pushed towards us, especially aimed at the most active member of our debate team.


I am hereby withdrawing the GoE from the tournament.

Perhaps we will participate in next year's event, provided we get less lip for our first participation in these debates.

Thanks a lot for the support, Aule. :mad:

The thing that stings me most, is that a fellow guildmember and deputy guildmaster of the GoE, is blunt enough to attack us like this, while he damn well knows that most of our members cannot debate for our guild, as they have either participated for other guilds, or still are doing so.
 

BlackCaptain

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This is very out of hand. Aule and Gothmog only wanted to speed up the debates, and we weren't asking you to give up your lives. If you needed more time you probly could've requested it. No one was personally attacking anyone. GoE, I'm disgusted. Aule and Gothmog did nothing aside from looking out for the execution of the Debate tournaments, and you took it far too personal. Sure, he may be managing all this, and all he was doing was asking for you to make a little bit more haste.

There may be other PM's that I don't know about, but judging from what I see, unless Aule said something directly insulting to your guild in a PM I think you're overreacting.

I don't wish to get into any debates beside Tolkien related ones, which it seems like I won't be doing soon, so please don't give me tons of backfire for this post
 

Gothmog

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Very well. As the Guild of Eruhini has withdrawn. This debate is awarded to the Guild of Scholars.

I know that the Scholars will be unhappy to "win" in such a manner but it cannot be helped.

Scatha, Aule's comments about the GoE on this thread were directed to Bethelarien because on this thread only Beth had posted from the GoE.

As for respect for Beth. I have the greatest of respect for her having debated against her and I would gladly have her on the same team as myself. I know just how hard she has worked for the GoE and just how tough an opponent she is.

Debate Closed.
 

Gothmog

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This debate has been re-opened at the request of the Eruhini. If the GoS are willing could they please confirm their team and could the GoE please post their team as soon as possible.

:)
 

Scatha

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The_Swordmaster
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Scatha
* Ghost


Ready and awake, eager to get a bite out of that scolars guild. ;)
 

Gothmog

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I am posting the question in the hope that the Scholars are willing to continue with this debate.

From The Return of the King. Book VI: Chapter 6: Many Partings.
'No, not dead, so far as I know,' said Treebeard. 'But he is gone. Yes, he is gone seven days. I let him go. There was little left of him when he crawled out, and as for that worm-creature of his, he was like a pale shadow. Now do not tell me, Gandalf, that I promised to keep him safe; for I know it. But things have changed since then. And I kept him until he was safe, safe from doing any more harm. You should know that above all I hate the caging of live things, and I will not keep even such creatures as these caged beyond great need. A snake without fangs may crawl where he will.'
'You may be right,' said Gandalf; 'but this snake had still one tooth left, I think. He had the poison of his voice, and I guess that he persuaded you, even you Treebeard, knowing the soft spot in your heart. Well, he is gone, and there is no more to be said.
So the question is this:

Was Treebeard correct to let Saruman go before Gandalf returned?

The Scholars have choice of sides.

Good luck and a good debate to all. :)
 

baragund

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The Scholar's team is fine as it is. Our opening post will be up shortly.

Thanks, Eruhini, for sticking it out.:) I'm looking forward to having a fun debate and learning something in the process.
 

baragund

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Hi Guys,

Please bear with us for a little while. We are having a small debate among ourselves over which side to take! This is a good thing because there are lots of valid points on either side of the argument!

Like a fine single malt, these things take time:)
 

baragund

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OK, we're finally underway! Whoo-Hoo!!

It is the Scholar’s opinion that Treebeard was right to release Saruman. Even though he caused mischief in the Shire, it resulted in the best possible outcome because he was 'killed' and his spirit sent back to Aman, presumably in disgrace. If he had been allowed to remain in ME indefinitely, even if guarded by Ents or somebody else, he would remain a 'loose end' that would always have the potential to cause harm.

To answer the question of whether or not Treebeard was right, one needs to look at his motivations at the time he took action, what he knew (or reasonably could be expected to know), the immediate consequences and the long-term consequences.

Regarding motivation, it was pity that moved Treebeard to release Saruman. Treebeard was, by nature, a peaceful soul and the rage that led him to mobilize the Ents to destroy Isengard was something that was out of his element, even though his rage was justified by Saruman’s destruction of Fangorn. When his rage cooled, he realized that he did not have it in him to remain some kind of wizard’s jail warden.

Then, of course, there are the obvious parallels to the pity that Bilbo, Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo felt to Gollum at various times throughout LOTR. Tolkien was very careful in preventing his characters from passing judgment, and we see the continuation of that line of thinking with Treebeard and Saruman. Through this pity, Saruman and Grima Wormtongue are given a chance, once again, to redeem themselves.

Regarding what Treebeard knew (or should have known), he knew that the Ring was destroyed, thus ending any influence it would have on others. The War was won, and King Elessar was re-establishing the combined kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. He was reconciling with the Dunlendings as well as the Easterlings and Southrons. Saruman was a shattered shadow of his former self, stripped of all of his powers. It was a fair assumption that Saruman posed no significant threat to Middle Earth so there was no real use in keeping Saruman imprisoned in Isengard.

Regarding consequences, the Scouring of the Shire was an absolute necessity, and it would have been impossible without Saruman. Remember, there were still many ‘swarthy’ and unsavory men hanging around the Bree area who were gathered up by Saruman. The Scouring led to the final defeat of these evil men but, most importantly, it resulted in Saruman being ‘killed’ by Wormtongue and his spirit being whisked back to Aman, where he received his true judgment at the hands of the Valar, thus ending the final chapter of the War of the Ring.
 

omnipotent_elf

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no worries bout the time:D (i mean, we'd be a bit hypocritical(sp?) to complain......)

now to the argument

It is our teams opinion (i hope)that Treebeard was not right in releasing Sauruman

indeed, as the very wise gandalf stated
"but this snake had still one tooth left, I think".
indeed, Gandalf is to be believed as
He had the poison of his voice, and I guess that he persuaded you, even you Treebeard, knowing the soft spot in your heart.
this implys that Sauruman still had at least some power through his intelligence. His power, in a sense, was from his intelligence, and not his physical strength, so to still have the power of mind to decieve such a wise creature as treebeard (if gandalfs word is to be believed) is to indeed have a lot of power left

Additionally, as gandalf alludes, Treebeard was decieved. Thus, he was not in the right position to let Sauraman go. If this argument is based on motivation, then Treebeards "motivation" was influenced by Saruman.




he persuaded you, even you Treebeard, knowing the soft spot in your heart
and as argued

Treebeard was, by nature, a peaceful soul and the rage that led him to mobilize the Ents to destroy Isengard was something that was out of his element, even though his rage was justified by Saruman’s destruction of Fangorn. When his rage cooled, he realized that he did not have it in him to remain some kind of wizard’s jail warden.
Saruman was a shattered shadow of his former self, stripped of all of his powers. It was a fair assumption that Saruman posed no significant threat to Middle Earth so there was no real use in keeping Saruman imprisoned in Isengard.
Saurumans knowledge of the ents allowed him to have the influence he needed to allow his freedom. Treebeard was decieved. Does this sound like the work of a "shadow of a man". I dont think so.

Through this pity, Saruman and Grima Wormtongue are given a chance, once again, to redeem themselves.
But their ends meant that, despite their oppertunity to redeem themselves, they retract to their normal ways. Gollum also returned to his ways, in his thrist for the ring.

Remember, there were still many ‘swarthy’ and unsavory men hanging around the Bree area who were gathered up by Saruman
Then why return their master to them?. His influence was key. Why return Sauruman to a position where he can demonstrate and gain power?
 

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