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Saruman died how, again?

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

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Okay, somebody clear this up for me.

Saruman, like Gandalf and Sauron, is a Maia.

Gandalf survives a death-match with another Maia, the Balrog.

Sauron is so tough it takes two ages to find a way to kill him - if he is indeed dead.

But Saruman gets killed when he's stabbed with a silly little shiv by a sniveling nobody?

Was he that badly hurt when Gandalf broke his staff?
 

Bill the Pony

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Did Saruman really die? We know his body died, but how about his spirit? Do we know for sure he did not manage to take shape again? Does anyone know? I'm not so sure he could not, but maybe he did not want to. Frodo took away his last little bit of fun, and he knows the ring is gone, so it's very unlikely for him to become a new 'big ruler'. What's there for him to come back to?

Let's assume for a moment that he could not take shape, even though he wanted to.
Both Sauron and Gandalf could get a physical body again, so what is the difference between Saruman and the other two?. Gandalf was allowed explicitly by the Valar (or Eru?) to come back. I guess it's reasonable of them not to allow Saruman to do the same. But then it's expected that they also would not allow Sauron to take shape again. So how come Sauron could do so (although he could no longer look nice)? I see two possibilities: 1. Sauron is a much stronger maia. 2. Part of Sauron's spirit was in the Ring, in physical form. Somehow this made it impossible for the Valar to prevent him from taking shape.

Just speculating. There must be a better explanation than this?
 

Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Bill the Pony
Did Saruman really die? We know his body died, but how about his spirit? Do we know for sure he did not manage to take shape again? Does anyone know? I'm not so sure he could not, but maybe he did not want to. Frodo took away his last little bit of fun, and he knows the ring is gone, so it's very unlikely for him to become a new 'big ruler'. What's there for him to come back to?

Let's assume for a moment that he could not take shape, even though he wanted to.
Both Sauron and Gandalf could get a physical body again, so what is the difference between Saruman and the other two?. Gandalf was allowed explicitly by the Valar (or Eru?) to come back. I guess it's reasonable of them not to allow Saruman to do the same. But then it's expected that they also would not allow Sauron to take shape again. So how come Sauron could do so (although he could no longer look nice)? I see two possibilities: 1. Sauron is a much stronger maia. 2. Part of Sauron's spirit was in the Ring, in physical form. Somehow this made it impossible for the Valar to prevent him from taking shape.
Just speculating. There must be a better explanation than this?


Well sauron was hurt badly enough because although he was a maia and they can't die hid will was attached to that ring and if it went down so would he. Because his spirit was hurt bad enough that so he can't reform again. Well as for saruman who knows? His body might have been slain and although EVERY maia can reform maybe the vala wouldn't let him because of his betrayel? Or maybe gandalf hurt his will so bad he can't get through anyway?
Gandalf had the will of the vala and are you sure his body was completley killed remember when sauron's body was slain in the 2nd age his body fell 2 dust and his spirit fled laying low for a long time and saruman body fell 2 dust aw well. Did his spirit flee aw well only to return later on? He would come back he could pretend he learnt his lessn then secrtetly and darkly built up an army and try and kill the free peoples???
 

BelDain

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If I remember correctly when Saruman's physical body is killed a spirit-like apparition rose from it and seemed to look to the West but then blew away.

I would say Saruman's spirit was not destroyed.
 

Gary Gamgee

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Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
[ Did his spirit flee aw well only to return later on? He would come back he could pretend he learnt his lessn then secrtetly and darkly built up an army and try and kill the free peoples??? [/B]
I like the idea that his spirit fled, sauron before, to hide somewhere in a dark place of ME. The Valar did not prevent Sauron from doing so i dont think they have bothered with a lesser Maia with nothing to threaten the world with, like the ring. But where would he go and what he do, maybe his spirit haunts a forest or Angmar and his ghost becomes a legend of the FA. mmh...
 
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Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Gary Gamgee


I like the idea that his spirit fled, sauron before, to hide somewhere in a dark place of ME. The Valar did not prevent Sauron from doing so i dont think they have bothered with a lesser Maia with nothing to threaten the world with, like the ring. But where would he go and what he do, maybe his spirit haunts a forest or Angmar and his ghost becomes a legend of the FA. mmh...
isn't angmar underwater????
 

BluestEye

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Originally posted by Bill the Pony


Let's assume for a moment that he could not take shape, even though he wanted to.
Both Sauron and Gandalf could get a physical body again, so what is the difference between Saruman and the other two?. Gandalf was allowed explicitly by the Valar (or Eru?) to come back. I guess it's reasonable of them not to allow Saruman to do the same. But then it's expected that they also would not allow Sauron to take shape again. So how come Sauron could do so (although he could no longer look nice)? I see two possibilities: 1. Sauron is a much stronger maia. 2. Part of Sauron's spirit was in the Ring, in physical form. Somehow this made it impossible for the Valar to prevent him from taking shape.

Just speculating. There must be a better explanation than this?
Well, maybe the answear can be found in the following sentance, taken from the Ainulindale. It talks about what will happen with the Ainur (the Valar and the Maiar as well) in the End of Days:

"Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each..."
Maybe Eru-Iluvatar had his own intentions why he allowed Gandalf and Sauron to come back to Middle-Earth.

BluestEye
 
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Goro Shimura

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BelDain--

If I remember correctly when Saruman's physical body is killed a spirit-like apparition rose from it and seemed to look to the West but then blew away.
I thought that Saruman's disipation was similar to Saurons. (Remember the black cloud getting blown away in the wind.)

I don't think either Saruman or Sauron can come back.

Saruman's spirit looked to the West for help... but his request was denied due to his deeds in life. So his spirit was allowed to dissipate.

That's how I take it (though I don't have the books here....)
 

Mayberry

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Saruman's Spirit

I always found it poignant and yet fitting when Saruman's spirit rose up from his dead body and looked (or hovered) towards the West, then was swept away by the wind. I always took it to mean that Saruman was asking forgiveness and wanted to return to the place from which he came. (Request denied.) Saruman had his chance to choose good over evil in ME and blew it--Big Time.

I know that a lot of people may disagree with me, but I think that Tolkien (consciously or unconsciously) was interjecting some of his own Christian beliefs in this scene.

...Drumming my fingers waiting for another poster to berate me for seeing something in a scene that Tolkien never actually explained or criticized for thinking that LOTR's utilized Tolkien's Christian principles when it was supposed to have been just another entertaining fantasy story...
 

Goro Shimura

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I'll back you up on this one, Mayberry!

I wish Saruman would have repented.

But I guess he was too proud to work under Gandalf's leadership... or to accept mercy from a Halfling....

If you read the book with your view of it all... then all the scenes with Saruman become much more moving.

But if you are right... then LotR is practically just a cleverly written tract!

That can't be!! ;)
 

BluestEye

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Just another way to look at it...

In many cultures around the world, the West represented Ending or Death of things - where things end and new things are born. The ancient Egyptians believed that to the West of the Nile there is the land of the dead and there they placed their dead. In the Native American wisdom, the West is the place of the Introspection, where we look inside ourselves and find how we can acheive our goals.
In Tolkien's Middle-Earth, when the Elves "die" they go to the West and wait in the Halls of Mandos untill the End of Days.
So Saruman's looking in the West direction and then turning and being blown by the wind, may be a symbol that this may not be The End...

BluestEye
 

Mayberry

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Westward Ho

Yes, looking to the West (the setting sun, Atlantis, Mu, Mythical Avalon, etc.) is a common theme in many religions and cultures.

As for Saruman's spirit, I recall that it was a cold wind that blew in from the West. I think that Saruman was blown into the void where Sauron and Morgoth's spirits reside. Serves Saruman right, since he, Sauron and Morgoth had their chances for redemption/forgiveness at one time or another. On the other hand, a lot of ME residents weren't counting on Sauron returning after the Last Alliance, so...we're back to where we
started with the title of this thread.
 

Goro Shimura

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Not necessarily...

Sauron cannot come back. Even when he was vanquished those first times... the elves had an inkling. Or am I out of book there? Did Elrond (or anybody) really know that the ring must be destroyed for Sauron to be destroyed the way it's shown in the movie?
 

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