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Saruman knows?

Eonwe

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I can't seem to finger this out.

Does Saruman know that Gandalf has fallen in Moria fighting a Balrog, when he meets him again at the entrance of Orthanc as Gandalf the White?

Does he know Gandalf has fallen at all?

Is he suprised to see him back, changed?

He certainly did not want to see Gandalf in that way. :)

And why didn't Saruman take Gandalf's offer, to give up his staff and go to Mordor?
 
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Greenwood

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I would say Saruman does not know about Gandalf's transformation. At one point in the parlay the book says: " 'That sounds well,' sneered Saruman. 'Very much in the manner of Gandalf the Grey; so condescending, and so very kind. ....' " A few paragraphs later Gandalf says: " 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.' "
 

Eonwe

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ok so he doesn't know Gandalf has died fighting a Balrog... How do his Orcs know where the Fellowship is (back to the Gap of Rohan thread)?

I wonder what he knows?

1) The Fellowship went through Moria into Lothlorien?
2) Many people seen in boats on Anduin while a Nazgul steed is shot down?

Too bad no-one in Fangorn to tell him Gandalf is hanging around :)
 

Anamatar IV

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Originally posted by Eonwe

And why didn't Saruman take Gandalf's offer, to give up his staff and go to Mordor?
Saruman like all others is not partners with sauron. He wished to weild the one ring. He feared and hated sauron but hated the free people as well. He knew that he would not be welcome in mordor.
 

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

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I haven't given this very much thought, but I'd say Saruman probably knew that:

1. The Fellowship entered Moria
2. They left Moria but Gandalf was not with them
3. They were in boats on the Anduin, on their way south

He may have been wondering what became of Gandalf -- indeed, he might have been rather worried about what had become of him. However, he may not have considered Gandalf much of a threat, considering how easily he imprisoned him a few months earlier. Unless, of course, gandalf had the Ring... but if that were the case, why was the Company continuing south?

This question is closely related to the issues raised in the thread on "Saruman's Military Intelligence". How you answer this question depends on your assumptions about Saruman and what resources he had at his disposal.
 

Gil-Galad

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Well,as i know Gandalf and Saruman are Maia so they can read their minds.There's a connection between them so it's really possible that Saruman knows what happens with Gandalf or to feel when Gandalf is dead:)
 

Melian

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Yes,Gil-Galad seems to near the truth.:D Just like Galadriel and sauron,for example.Saruman must have felt if a might equal to his had been destroyed.As G-G says, they had some telepathy,after all.
 

Ingwë

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Indeed this is old thread, but I want to add something :)

Well, as i know Gandalf and Saruman are Maia so they can read their minds.
I don't think it is true. If it is what about Melkor and Manwe when Melkor and Ungoliant destroyed the trees? Why didn't Manwe feel his presence? I think that Saruman didn't know what happened to Gandalf. Probably they could read their minds when they are near :)
 

Starflower

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I think it was a nasty surprise to Saruman for Gandalf to reveal his transformation at Orthanc. Surely this was something Saruman could not have anticipated, that Gandalf would be allowed 'back from the dead' and be stronger than ever.
 

Eledhwen

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Eonwe said:
How do his Orcs know where the Fellowship is (back to the Gap of Rohan thread)?

I wonder what he knows?

1) The Fellowship went through Moria into Lothlorien?
2) Many people seen in boats on Anduin while a Nazgul steed is shot down?

Too bad no-one in Fangorn to tell him Gandalf is hanging around :)
Saruman has a palantír. He can see things, but he is not all-seeing and he must search to find out what's going on. All the while, of course, he has also put his palantír at Sauron's beck and call.
 

Thorondor_

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Ingwë said:
Well, as i know Gandalf and Saruman are Maia so they can read their minds.
I don't think it is true. If it is what about Melkor and Manwe when Melkor and Ungoliant destroyed the trees? Why didn't Manwe feel his presence? I think that Saruman didn't know what happened to Gandalf. Probably they could read their minds when they are near :)
Mere direct perception of another mind is possible for all beings - esspecially for the valar and maiar, though an istar, being incarnate, has his perceptions severely dimmed.

Perhaps Manwe didn't perceive the presence of Melkor due to the "void-like" darkness created by Ungoliant:
Of the darkening of Valinor said:
A cloak of darkness she wove about them when Melkor and Ungoliant set forth; an Unlight, in which things seemed to be no more, and which eyes could not pierce, for it was void
 

Ingwë

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Thorondor_ said:
Mere direct perception of another mind is possible for all beings - esspecially for the valar and maiar, though an istar, being incarnate, has his perceptions severely dimmed.
Why are you so sure? I don't remember something like that. If it was so the Valar would look at Melkor's mind and they would see that he wants to take the jewels, to kill Finwë, etc. You understand me, don't you?
Eledhwen said:
Saruman has a palantír. He can see things, but he is not all-seeing and he must search to find out what's going on. All the while, of course, he has also put his palantír at Sauron's beck and call.
That is interesting and surely Saruman used the Palantir but probably Sauron had one in Barad-dur. So why did he used it to find the Ring-bearer? Probably the Stone didn't show everything that the possessors want to see because they mustn't use it :)
 

Thorondor_

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Mere direct perception of another mind is possible for all beings - esspecially for the valar and maiar, though an istar, being incarnate, has his perceptions severely dimmed.
Why are you so sure? I don't remember something like that. If it was so the Valar would look at Melkor's mind and they would see that he wants to take the jewels, to kill Finwë, etc.
I disagree; from Osanwe kenta (original emphasis:
Though in "Arda Unmarred" openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill [i.e. the closing of thought of communication]
...
Manwe could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise
And form Morgoth's Ring, Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, ii:
Much could thus 'go on behind Manwë's back': indeed the innermost being of all other minds, great and small, was hidden from him. And with regard to the Enemy, Melkor, in particular, he could not penetrate by distant mind-sight his thought and purposes, since Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind: which physically expressed took shape in the darkness and shadows that surrounded him
 

Sangahyando

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My opinion is that Saruman received information through Crebain, and when Aragorn sought to use the Seeing Seat, Saruman used the Palantir and used its powers to view Amon Hen or something, it is highly unlikely that his spies noticed the boats coming down Anduin and if they did he would have waited to locate the Fellowship first, even though he was rushing to press the assault on Rohan.

And, the reason that 'Nimrandir' (the White Pilgrim or something) would have possibly been known to Saruman was because Grima Wormtongue had fled back to Orthanc and would have certainly told Saruman if he had not sensed the loss of his grip over Theoden at Meduseld as the distance was not as far as that to Amon Hen, being 15 leagues from Helm's Deep.

Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper
 

Ingwë

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Thorondor_ said:
I disagree; from Osanwe kenta (original emphasis: And form Morgoth's Ring, Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, ii:
Ok, but it is for Manwë. What about the other Valar? Couldn't they look in MElk's mind?

Going back to the thread about Saruman and Gandalf... I think that Saruman knew that Gandalf was in Moria but he didn't knew about the fight with the Balrog but Saruman has many watchers so he knew that Gandalf remained/was lost in Moria :)
 

Thorondor_

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Ok, but it is for Manwë. What about the other Valar? Couldn't they look in MElk's mind?
Actually, the quote from Osanwe reffers to a universal protection against forceful reading of one's mind (let alone Melkor's, who was dead set against disclosing his thoughts). Other vala weren't as potent as Manwe; however, "Ulmo was not deceived [by Melkor's repentance], and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by"; though they couldn't actually read him, they suspected him all the way.
 

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