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Saruman's Military Intelligence

H

Harad

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Consider the accomplishments and failures of Saruman. Consider his military intelligence (MI), and no, that is not an oxymoron. Also consider things attributed to him that changed the course of the LOTR.

1. Saruman learned of the finding of the Ring when Gandalf told him it was in the Shire in July 3018. The subsequent events in the story up until the Fellowship enters Moria, ASSUME that Saruman knew everything that the Council of Elrond had decided including the existence of the Fellowship, the goal of the Fellowship, and the approximate location of the Fellowship. Where is there any evidence in LOTR that these assumptions were correct?

2. With the assumptions in 1, the next assumption is that Saruman used his military forces, in the interval between July-December 3018 to deploy a huge force of Orcs to patrol the Gap of Rohan against...what?

3. By February 3019 Saruman is sending Orcs up and down Rohan. Eomer is killing the Orcs. But why is Saruman doing this? So a party of his Orcs (Uruk-hai...excuse me) can come upon the Fellowship at Parth Galen, the ONLY logical place for them to be, considering Saruman's MI. Or if that is not the only logical place, then consider the HUGE force of Uruks needed to cover all the ground from the Gap of Rohan thru Rohan and all the way to Anduin. Merry and Pippen are taken on February 26.

4. On March 3 of 3019 Saruman launches a full scale attack on Rohan at Helm's Deep. Unless its a leap year that is 5 DAYS! after his far flung forces chanced upon the Fellowship at Parth Galen.

5. Finally the Master Tactician and Strategist who has forced the Fellowship thru Moria with his brilliant blockade of the Gap, and picked up 2 hobbits (the wrong ones of course) from hundreds of miles away in the other direction, and launched a nearly successful full-scale attack on a neighboring country, is destroyed because he forgot about the Ents in his backyard.

How did Saruman know what he did and when did he know it? How was Saruman the Off-White so wise, lucky, dumb, and unlucky, all in the same year?
 

lilhobo

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should nt this thread be labelled "Harad's military Genius"???

but lemme read it lol

hoom hoom, it did not have anything like

if a implies b, and -a implies not -b
and 1 + 1 = windows = bill gates
nike = sweat shop slavery > human rights!!!

hoom hoom

Read the book, Saruman milked ole Treebeard for all hes worth and found the ents to be less efficient in matters of warfares. How the heck can Sasruman know where JRR got the Hourns from??? some old treespirits with an axe to grind, so to speack
 

Eonwe

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I wasn't as impressed with it. I mean what about a sneak attack on Rohan while the Fellowship hammed it up in Rivendell? Even a smaller force than what he had at Helm's Deep would have been able to reak havoc, and may have changed the plans of Gandalf substantially. Instead he focuses so intently on the Ring he overextends.

Of course Arwen would have kicked his ass anyway, so its all moot.
 

Lantarion

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LOL Squeeky. :)
Pretty good q's, Harad, and I haven't yet found the answers to them (damn CGtME); but on a nitpicking note, Saruman heard of the One Ring well before 3018. He settled in Isengard in 2759, and only a decade or so later it was found out that he coveted the Ring, and wanted to get his hands on it.
 

Elanor2

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Some answers, perhaps...

Saruman was not working alone in trying to find the ring. Via the palantir, he was getting instructions from Sauron as well.

Sauron knew that the ring was in Rivendel (the Nazgul followed it there), so he might have instructed Saruman to keep some pressure on the Gap of Rohan to pick up the ring if they tried to move it south. Remember that Sauron had every reason to believe that they were going to use the ring against him, so moving the ring to Minas Thirit would have been the best action if you wanted to use the ring as an attack weapon.

Saruman had a lot of orcs, as the battles of Helm's Deep prove. He was preparing the attack on Rohan even before the fellowship left Rivendel. The search for the ring and the attack on Rohan should be considered separately.

After Moria, the remaining of the Fellowship stayed one month in Lorien. During this time, preparations for a relatively small intercepting force south of Lorien can be carried out. In fact, they intercepted the fellowship quite far south from Lorien, which proves that it was done in a bit of a hurry and they had not progressed too much north yet.

The initiative for the interception of the Fellowship south of Lorien was not Saruman's, but Sauron's. Sauron (and perhaps Saruman) knew were the ring was because he got news from orcs in Moria (despite the fact that many did not manage to go through Lorien). Sauron wanted the ring and asked saruman to lend a small force for support, that joined Sauron's onw forces where they were (quite south still from Lorien).

Only after they had the hobbits did Saruman show his true colors and his Uruk-kai did not go towards Mordor but towards Orthanc. Sauron's orcs had to follow because they were smaller, cowards and because Legolas shoot the Nazgul and left them without instructions.

Saruman's moves look different if you combine what he did with the intructions from Sauron. His independent military actions were focused on Rohan. The search for the ring was directed by Sauron and Saruman only send a small company out to join Sauron (with added special instructions, of course).
 
H

Harad

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Excellent, Elanor2. I like a lot of what you say.

Saruman connection with Sauron is, of course, behind the scenes and must be inferred from the few things we do know: the palantir and the heterogeneous makeup of the Orc party that captured M&P. But you are absolutely correct that it must be an essential part of Saruman's MI.

Its a little too strong too say that Sauron "directed the search for the Ring" because Saruman was, of course, playing both sides, and had his own independent search underway.

Still--what evidence is there, independent of Gandalf's fear--that Saruman did in fact "put pressure on the Gap"? (Whether Sauron asked him to do so is unknowable?)

Given knowledge that the Ring was beyond Moria...and what was Sauron's communication method with Moria? then Sauron could communicate this to Saruman. Parth Galen might be a logical place to search since it was below the falls, but it still seems a little far-fetched to me that a force of Saruman's would be needed or requested by Sauron to roam so far afield from Orthanc to search for the Ring. How much for example could Sauron have trusted Saruman? In the case of the Gap (if that had really come into play) Saruman would have been the local warlord. In the case of Parth Galen, Saruon would have been as "local" if not more so.

I agree completely with you that Saruman was "preparing the attack on Rohan even before the fellowship left Rivendel." If Saruman sent an equivalent party to the Gap at the behest of Sauron, as he sent to Parth Galen during this period of buildup, I would believe it. But of course it would take a MUCH larger party to close the Gap.

Pontifex,
I didnt mean to imply that Saruman only heard about the Ring from Gandalf. What he learned from Gandalf was its location and further (conclusive?) evidence that it was the OneRing.
 

Eonwe

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squeeky -- I will type more, I was busy last night. If only Harad would ask easier questions... Besides that's normally all he types back to me :) I gotta do some research, I never liked Saruman much.
 

aragil

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Why ask help of a traitor?

I can think of one reason that Sauron would ask Saruman for help- the Great River. Sauron's forces seemed to have very little access to the Western shores of the great river- the men of Gondor ensured that he could not cross in the South. Grishnakh's crossing seemed to be Nazgul-aided, so maybe crossing a larger force of orcs was difficult. Saruman, on the other hand, had fairly easy access to the West shore via Rohan (thank you Grima). On February 23rd the company was attacked by orcs + Nazgul from the East shore, presumably all Sauron's forces. It is not until the 26th, down at Parth Galen that we learn of forces on the West shore, and these notably include the Uruk-hai of Isengard. Perhaps Sauron had his troops prowling the East-banks, but when he learned with certainty that the Fellowship was on the river he requested help from Saruman's forces, which had easier access to the West shore. Remember, Sauron seems fairly arrogant, and probably thought that there was no way Saruman had enough will-power left to rebel, so asking him for help was just a matter of convenience. He wouldn't have needed trust, he thought he was dominating the little wizard.

ps. Sauron's communication with Moria was via Orc during the month that the Fellowship stayed in Lorien.

pps. A centrally located group of orcs could patrol the gap even if it was no larger than Ugluk's group. On my Map the Gap is no larger than the lake above Rauros, and it is completely bisected by the river Isen. Plop down 100 orcs at the Fords (the easiest crossing point, and centrally located), and then have the Crebain follow the fellowship from Moria to the Gap, place your orcs on the opposite side of the bank from the fellowship (pray that Legolas doesn't have 100 arrows), and you've effectively intercepted the fellowship, with more orcs waiting in nearbye Isengard. Also note that Ugluk's orc band outpaced Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, so they could definitely do the same to the Fellowship when it was 4/9 Hobbit, allowing any interception to be that much easier.
 

Bombadillodillo

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Hmm. . . . wasn't this the topic on a different thread?

first we have reincarnations of Harad and now reincarnations of threads . . . .


Still--what evidence is there, independent of Gandalf's fear--that Saruman did in fact "put pressure on the Gap"?
none . . . . but Tolkien did not write of the Gap of Rohan because Gandalf chose the Moria route.

However, there was evidence that he was watching the gap: the birds and the palantir. But why was he watching unless he meant to do something about it?

Tolkien did not write of the ambush at the Gap. . . . or did he? He did write of the ambush at the falls. And why did that succeed and fail?
 
H

Harad

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My response to Aragil,

the men of Gondor ensured that he could not cross in the south
Yet crossing the River at Parth Galen, a logical place to cross, below the falls, was no sweat for F&S, who met no help on the West from Gondor, nor opposition on the East from Sauron.

Sauron's communication with Moria was via Orc
I will grant that this is possible, altho it has the Orc take the route that you say Sauron's troops could not take in the other direction.

the Gap is no larger than the lake above Rauros
On my map the Gap is about the size of the range of hills/mountains East of the lake...a considerable piece of real estate. People mistake plains for mathematical planes, and the Gap was more a foothill area than the rolling plains of Rohan proper.

Also I refer to the very helpful dates that Squeek and myself have posted in

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=42742#post42742

Gandalf himself crossed the Isen without any trouble only 3 months before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell, and 2 1/2 months after he was imprisoned in Orthanc. Why then conclude that the Gap was impregnable?
 
H

Harad

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Response to Bomb,
I guess there is no end of attacking my posts? I am allowed to say that your posts are worthless and inane. Both.

none . . . . but Tolkien did not write of the Gap of Rohan because Gandalf chose the Moria route.
A novel idea. Thank you. Gandalf the character made a choice that JRRT the author could not gainsay. Love it.

However, there was evidence that he was watching the gap: the birds and the palantir.
In what way is that evidence. Saruman was searching for intelligence in Hollin with the crebain. He did not get it. What does this have to do with the Gap? What does the Palantir have to do with the Gap?

You're posts will have to do a LOT better than this.
 

Snaga

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1. Saruman learned of the finding of the Ring when Gandalf told him it was in the Shire in July 3018. The subsequent events in the story up until the Fellowship enters Moria, ASSUME that Saruman knew everything that the Council of Elrond had decided including the existence of the Fellowship, the goal of the Fellowship, and the approximate location of the Fellowship. Where is there any evidence in LOTR that these assumptions were correct?
First up Saruman deduced it from the Nazgul who he had heard were asking for the Shire. Gandalf refused to tell him anything. Second point is that Saruman spies were in Bree (the Southerner) and so he will in all likelihood discovered that 4 hobbits accompanied by a ranger called Strider went east from Bree. Saruman would gather that they had arrived at Elrond. Does he know about the Fellowship? Remember the Crebain from Dunland? Smart money says they are Saruman spies. Were the Fellowship seen - uncertain. But Saruman anticipates a move south from Rivendell and is looking (and Sauron also). Does he understand the intent of the Fellowship? He will have a better handle on what the White Council types are likely to think than Sauron. Sauron doesn't guess, Saruman probably does.

With the assumptions in 1, the next assumption is that Saruman used his military forces, in the interval between July-December 3018 to deploy a huge force of Orcs to patrol the Gap of Rohan against...what?
Assuming that this is referring to the famous Moria Why? thread, and the argument that Saruman could, with lots of orcs, close the Gap against the Fellowship. The point here is if you want the ring, and think it might come through the Gap, and you've got a lot of orcs at your disposal do you try to prevent the Fellowship slipping through or not? Course you do. (Your dates are a bit out since the Fellowship doesn't set out until December).

Still--what evidence is there, independent of Gandalf's fear--that Saruman did in fact "put pressure on the Gap"?
We'll never know because the Fellowship went through Moria!

What happens next? My guess is this - helped by Elanor2's insights. I think that Sauron had got Saruman working on the West of the Misties, and he was taking the East. We know there are Uruk's of Mordor in Moria, and we know from Haldir of Lorien they went to Moria a 'many days' ahead of the Fellowship's exit, and 'in great numbers'. Saruman's been watching Hollin, and the Redhorn Pass with his feathered friends, and communication is via Palantir. The Uruk's cross the Anduin, go over the Wold and pass Lorien to the West. A nazgul/Winged Messenger waits on the East Bank.

But inside Moria, things don't go to plan. For whatever reason the 8 of the 9 Walkers get through and make it to Moria. Orcs are in hot pursuit. They can't penetrate Lorien, but it seems quite plausible that they report back to the Nazgul. Saruman works out that Sauron didn't get the ring. How? Sauron would be having a BIG party if he had it. You'd know!

So Sauron and Saruman have a month to work out what to do next. For Sauron its a question of working out which route to Minas Tirith the ring is going to take. The river is a good bet and he has patrols on the East Bank, with a Nazgul in support (until Legolas downs it). Perhaps he asks Saruman to cover the western shores? Perhaps its Saruman's own idea.
How much for example could Sauron have trusted Saruman?
Remember when Pippin looks into the Palantir, and Sauron thinks its the ring-bearer. His reaction suggests he thinks that Saruman can be trusted to hand over the hobbit unspoilt. Saruman is very persuasive - its plausible that Sauron would trust him. But Saruman's thinking he's still got an option to get for himself. He sends a big bunch of Uruk Hai.

Looking at the dates, he's got to have sent them out several days before the Battle of the Isen.
The search for the ring and the attack on Rohan should be considered separately.
says Elanor2. Not really, its all part of the same game that Saruman is playing. The timing makes absolute sense. Prepare for war. But focus on the ring. Is it coming via the Gap? Wait and see. No its not. Its in Lorien. Send a big gang of Uruk-Hai. THEN attack Rohan - that way Rohan horsemen will all be occupied elsewhere perhaps, and your boys can come back via Fangorn.

So far so good. He's not been stupid, and luckily Sauron didn't win in Moria. It does go badly for him when:
(1) His lads grab the wrong hobbits
(2) Wormtongue fails to prevent Eomer chasing them

And he badly miscalculates when it comes to the Ents - stupid maybe? We have hindsight.
 
H

Harad

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To V of K,
Were the Fellowship seen -uncertain
Unlikely. Unless you give the crebain better eyesight than Legolas. From Sauron, Saruman would indeed have learned that the Ring made it to Rivendell. However, he would know nothing of the Fellowship itself, or of its quest, nor would Sauron, until after Moria. (Even then neither Saruon not Saruman would know for certain whether the Ring were with Gandalf. And both might believe that the Ring fell with Gandalf.)

Sauron doesn't guess, Saruman probably does
This is highly speculative. And the whole point of Saruman's betrayal. He wants the Ring for himself. Why would he ascribe different, aberrant in his mind, motives to others? He is more like Sauron than like Gandalf.

Your dates are a bit out
Youre right about that. But in the wrong direction. I am now narrowing down the gap in the Gap. Gandalf his own self crossed the Isen on Sept 24 without opposition, 2 and 1/2 months AFTER he was imprisoned in Orthanc.

Uruk's of Mordor in Moria
This contradicts Aragil's thesis that Sauron's orcs could not cross the Anduin. Shirley, it was easier for Sauron to patrol Parth Galen himself than to hofoot it all the way to Moria.

Perhaps he asks Saruman to cover the western
There is no sense in this, considering your own arguments of Sauron's orcs in Moria and communicating between Moria and Mordor.

Wormtongue fails to prevent Eomer chasing them
In fact the Horseman are continuously fighting the Orcs (and Dunlendings), not only Eomer but Theodred as well, despite the Worm. Getting a party thru Rohan at these times contradicts the idea that this area--and the Gap is more foothills than the rolling plains of Rohan--is so difficult to penetrate.

I do agree with Elanor2 that Saruman had to work on 2 tracks-an intelligence effort to find the Ring and a military effort to fight Rohan. The vast bulk of his forces would go into the latter.

Finally,

We'll never know because the Fellowship went through Moria!
Right on the nose. There is no evidence whatsoever in the Book that the Gap was held, and direct evidence that 3 months prior to the Fellowship leaving Rivendell the Gap was not held.
 

aragil

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Let's not be hasty...

...and don't call me Shirley!

Gandalf passed though the gap 2.5 months after his initial imprisonment in Orthanc, but before Saruman knew that the ring had left the Suza. At this point Gandalf was a wild-card, so Saruman did not know what he would do. Would he go to Rohan, Lorien, or Gondor and return with an army? If Saruman saw him returning towards the gap, then I'm sure that Saruman was relieved and not so much bent on stopping Gandalf. However, shortly after that Saruman would have heard from Bree that the ring was on the move, and later I'm sure he would have heard from Sauron that the ring was in Rivendell. Finally, the crebain might have given the word to him that the ring was coming south. I know that Legolas initially thinks that the crebain did not see them, but in the Two Towers one of the fellowship (I think Aragorn) admits to the possibility that they were seen and that their position was noted. At any rate, after seeing the crebain Gandalf becomes particularly insistent that they not go through the gap of Rohan. Then the Wargs attack and are driven off, another opportunity for S & S to get info on the whereabouts of the Fellowship. This then would be the time to close the Gap, not earlier. I still maintain that a small force of the Uruk-hai placed at the ford (in UT described as the only position to move large numbers of heavy troops across) would be fast enough to prevent the fellowship from crossing, especially if they had Crebain covering the skies. This goes doubly so for Wolf Riders, which Gandalf had seen in the vicinity, and reported so at the Council of Elrond.

Regarding the crossing of the Anduin, I never said that it would be impossible for large numbers to cross, just difficult. I don't think Sam and Frodo crossed below the falls- I don't remember any mention of the portage, and at least the canoe or Boromir was set in above the falls. Uruks could probably not cross below the falls, nor above the point where the Silverlode flowed into the Anduin- too many elves. So, Sauron being the kind to give orders might have told Saruman to send troops. Otherwise, how do we explain the fact that the company was spotted by orcs and Nazgul on the 23rd, yet had no trouble on the west banks until the 26th?
 

JeffF.

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Saruman's MI sources

As far as I can determine Saruman had several sources of INTEL. He had spies like the Bill and the southerners at Bree, his patrols of orcs and wolfriders, his birds (identified by Gandalph in FOTR as Saruman's spies prior to the Fellowship entering Moria), and probably most importantly had the Pilantir of Orthanc. According to Unfinished Tales his spies were co-opted by the Lord of the Nazgul. It is possible that his bird (and or beast) spies worked for him at the behest of Radagast who did not know (at least for a time) that Saruman had turned. As described in the last chapter of Unfinished Tales the Pilantir was a great source of information for one of such power as Saruman possessed. Besidis the legitimate users, Elendil's heirs and legally appointed representatives (like the Stewards of Gondor) a wizard like Saruman would be able to use the pilantir to a far greater effect than most beings of ME.

Now that I think of it, these airbornes spies may be another reason why Gandalph chose the underground route or Moria as opposed to uncovered Gap of Rohan. As limited as Orc patrols would have been they would have been greatly enhanced by the assistance of bird spies bringing world to Saruman of movement in Dunland and Enedwaith. Birds of Prey are not the only birdss graced with good eyesight, most birds have comparatively good eyesight.
 
H

Harad

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movie movie

Aragil,
Sorry, I keep forgetting how sensitive you are about that "Shirley" incident.

I think you have fallen into the "Movie" trap.

I don't think Sam and Frodo crossed below the falls- I don't remember any mention of the portage
It happens to me too. (For example Kuduk pointed out that in the Book, most likely it was NOT the Nazgul that attacked in the Bree Inn room.)

In the Book,
The task proved hard indeed, yet in the end it was done.
This was the portage. And Boromirs boat did not go over the falls, because the falls were behind them.

I suppose I wont ever convince even one person that the Gap was a piece of cake, so the real question reverts to which was reasonably safer, the Gap or Moria. If you also consider that going to Lorien was a necessity, then Moria becomes mandatory.

I still have major problems with Ugluk and his lads making their way thru Rohan to Parth Galen with Eomer on the prowl. It couldnt have been too much before they caught M&P (what provisions did the Orcs bring with them?) so its not as if Rohan was unprepared.

Now consider this chronology:

Feb 23: the boats are attacked at night near Sarn Gebir
Feb 25: First Battle of the Fords of Isen; Theodred son of Theoden is slain.
Feb 26: the breaking of the Fellowship

AMAZEMENT!!!
The battle where Theodred was killed:
It is not yet 5 days since the bitter tidings that Theodred your son was slain upon the West Marches
So says Grima to Theoden on March 2.

So who was holding the Fords on Feb 25? The implication is that it was Theodred, because Rohan was not on the offensive.

I now contend that Rohan held the Fords of the Isen up until Feb 25, well after the Company passed Moria!
 

Gothmog

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The Portage you speak of is at Sarn Gebir.
One by one Boromir and Aragorn carried the boats, while the others
toiled and scrambled after them with the baggage. At last all was removed and laid on the portage-way. Then with little further hindrance, save from sprawling briars and many fallen stones, they moved forward all together. Fog still hung in veils upon the crumbling rock-wall, and to their left mist shrouded the River: they could hear it rushing and foaming over the sharp shelves and stony teeth of Sarn Gebir, but they could not see it. Twice they made the journey, before all was brought safe to the southern landing.
There the portage-way, turning back to the water-side, ran gently down to the shallow edge of a little pool. It seemed to have been scooped in the river-side, not by hand, but by the water swirling down from Sarn Gebir against a low pier of rock that jutted out some way into the stream. Beyond it the shore rose sheer into a grey cliff, and there was no further passage for those on foot.
From the Fellowship of the ring: Chapter 9, The Great River.
As for Boromir's body not going over the falls.
'The labour would be hard and long: there are no stones that we could
use nearer than the water-side,' said Gimli.
'Then let us lay him in a boat with his weapons, and the weapons of his vanquished foes,' said Aragorn. 'We will send him to the Falls of Rauros and give him to Anduin. The River of Gondor will take care at least that no evil creature dishonours his bones.'
And further.
Now they laid Boromir in the middle of the boat that was to bear him
away. The grey hood and elven-cloak they folded and placed beneath his head. They combed his long dark hair and arrayed it upon his shoulders. The golden belt of Lórien gleamed about his waist. His helm they set beside him, and across his lap they laid the cloven horn and the hilts and shards of his sword; beneath his feet they put the swords of his enemies. Then fastening the prow to the stern of the other boat, they drew him out into the water. They rowed sadly along the shore, and turning into the swift-running channel they passed the green sward of Parth Galen. The steep sides of Tol Brandir were glowing: it was now mid-afternoon. As they went south the fume of Rauros rose and shimmered before them, a haze of gold. The rush and thunder
of the falls shook the windless air.
Sorrowfully they cast loose the funeral boat: there Boromir lay, restful, peaceful, gliding upon the bosom of the flowing water. The stream took him while they held their own boat back with their paddles. He floated by them, and slowly his boat departed, waning to a dark spot against the golden light; and then suddenly it vanished. Rauros roared on unchanging. The River had taken Boromir son of Denethor, and he was not seen again in Minas Tirith, standing as he used to stand upon the White Tower in the morning. But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars.
Both from the Two Towers: Chapter 1, The Departure of Boromir.

So Frodo crossed above the falls and Boromir's funeral boat went over the falls.
 
H

Harad

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Well thats odd. Didnt they use the portgage to get around the falls? Must be more than one falls...
 

Gothmog

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The Sarn Gebir was a section of Rapids that was impassible by boat. Therefore they had to portage around them. Aragorn did say that they could Portage past the falls by the north stair. However, the Fellowship was attacked above the falls before they could use this way.
 
H

Harad

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Thanks, Gothmog for setting me straight about the rapids AND the falls.

Now gentlemen and ladies, and proudfeet, the remaining questions are:

1. What evidence is there that the Fords of Isen were not passable for the Company?

Sept 24, 3018: Gandalf crosses the Isen
Dec 25 (chrismas?), 3018: the Company leaves Rivendell
Feb 25, 3019: the First Battle of the Fords of Isen.

Isnt the clear implication of this that the Fords were passable up until or about Feb 25, 3019?

2. How did Ugluk and his lads get across Rohan to Parth Galen?

Jan 15, 3019: the Fall of Gandalf
Feb 26, 3019: Breaking of the Fellowship; Eomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from Emyn Muil.

Sometime between Jan 15 and Feb 26, Orcs brought the news of Gandalf's fall from Moria to Mordor, Sauron told Saruman about it and asked him to send an Orc-band to Parth Galen (this also is rather hard to believe), and Saruman dispatched Ugluk w/lads. Its possible to have happened, but speaks of a rather big lapse in Rohirrim security. Considering that Eomer picks up the Orc-band immediately upon them enterring Rohan from the South, how were they missed coming from the North, probably days before?
 

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