🧙 The Tolkien Forum 🧝

Welcome to our forum! Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox! Plus you won't see ads ;)

Sauron the Necromancer in Mirkwood

Ăšlairi

Crying in the Wilderness
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
1,965
Reaction score
6
Location
Down the rabbit hole...
Sauron, referred to in 'The Hobbit' as the 'Necromancer' occupied Dol Guldur whilst Bilbo was in Mirkwood. Imagine if Sauron had captured Bilbo? He would have obtained the One Ring and LotR would have never taken place, except if it was the point of view of Sauron.
 

Gamil Zirak

The Ladies' Dwarve
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Messages
736
Reaction score
4
Location
Texas
That would have been devastating. Suaron would have ultimate control of middle earth. Thank goodness he was too busy looking in the river for the ring to notice Bilbo and Co.
 
S

StinkhornJake

Guest
Giving Me Chills!!!

I think that if Gandalf and Sarumon had really known (and not just suspected) the true origins of the evil in Mirkwood, then they would have been too pre-occupied with Sauron for Gandalf to concern himself with mere dragon gold!

Plus - Sauron had no idea as to the presence or possessions of Golum, nor Bilbo for that matter. The ring was perfectly safe passing through (and later, around) his evil realm - even if it's bearer wasn't.
 

Gamil Zirak

The Ladies' Dwarve
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Messages
736
Reaction score
4
Location
Texas
Gandalf wasn't merely concerned with dragon gold. He didn't want Sauron to be able to use Smaug as a weapon.

Sauramon was perfectly happy with Sauron in Mirkwood because he could keep an eye on him. He only went along with the idea of flushing the Necromancer out because Sauramon was afraid that Sauron would find the ring in the river.
 
R

ReadWryt

Guest
What I find interesting is that the Silmarillion makes reference to Sauron "taking form" and posing as the Necromancer of Mirkwood...but elsewhere there are statements that Sauron could not take form...I wonder what was up with that?
 

Gamil Zirak

The Ladies' Dwarve
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Messages
736
Reaction score
4
Location
Texas
Was Sauron a physical being at this point or just a wraith-like presence? If I remember correctly, Gollum states something about Sauron's four fingers later on in the LoTR. I wonder what the Necromancer looked like. I guess it's possible to believe that Sauron was a wraith-like presence because it was first thought that the chief nazgul (a wraith) was the Necromancer of Mirkwood.
 

Bucky

Registered User
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Messages
1,623
Reaction score
12
Location
Near New Haven
What is this?
The Ametuer Thread? ;)

>>>>I think that if Gandalf and Sarumon had really known (and not just suspected) the true origins of the evil in Mirkwood, then they would have been too pre-occupied with Sauron for Gandalf to concern himself with mere dragon gold!

They DID know, for sure.
The Tale of the Years, Third Age:

2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that it's master is indeed Sauron.

2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.

2941 Thorin Oakenshield & Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum & finds the Ring......

Basically, The White Council kept the info that The Necromancer was Sauron quiet.


As for Sauron's shape, it's been thoroughly discussed up here.
It took a LONG time for him to 'reshape' after Isildur cut the Ring from his finger & his spirit fled from his body.

I think the movie showing this 'Eye' distorts people's idea of Sauron's shape at the end of the Third Age.

Gollum states PLAINLY "He has only 4 fingers on one hand, but they are enough."
Pippin says after looking into the Palantir "Then HE came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked and I understood"
Sounds very much like a physical pressance to me.


And, while Thorin & Company were getting lost in Mirkwood, in Thrandruil's kingdom, might I add, The Necromancer, 300-450 miles to the south, was busy being driven from Dol Gulder by the White Council.........
 

Ăšlairi

Crying in the Wilderness
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
1,965
Reaction score
6
Location
Down the rabbit hole...
Originally posted by Bucky
What's this? The Ametuer Thread?
How true, well, now you're here Bucky, so lets talk, you and I!

Originally posted by Bucky
Gollum states PLAINLY "He has only 4 fingers on one hand, but they are enough."
That's what I said Bucky. Hey, keep the Sauron knowing of the existence of the Balrog thread going OK?
 

Grond

Morgoth's Mace
Joined
Oct 31, 2001
Messages
3,040
Reaction score
37
Location
Somewhere in a Tolkien story.
Bucky, are we getting a tad bit arrogant in our old age? Amateur thread indeed! The topic is what might have transpired had Sauron captured Bilbo with the Ring... which is a valid "professional" topic. Please don't be condescending to others. There ain't no "niceness" in it. :)
 

Hirila

2009 - life is great
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Messages
428
Reaction score
0
Location
at Lake Zurich, Switzerland
Back to what brought us here:

I don`t think that Gandalf knew of what could have happened if the Necromancer had got hold of Bilbo`s ring.
Remember, he only was sure of it`s being the One Ring when he put it into the fire before Frodo set off for his journey.
 

Ăšlairi

Crying in the Wilderness
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
1,965
Reaction score
6
Location
Down the rabbit hole...
Great point! I have deduced this from your post Hirila, so feel proud! At that time Gandalf had no idea who the Necromancer was and he had no idea that the Ring Bilbo had was the One, so they were extremely vulnerable in Mirkwood.
 

Beleg Strongbow

Superior Elf
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Doriath AND Sydney Australia and where ever "SHE"
I'm not sure about this i think that sauron's army wasn't ready to fight a battle there and then. He would probably wait a while giving the elves time to flee and time for his army to be unbeatable then go to war.He would start at lorien and thraundil's home then progress up to erebor and dale take them, then recapture the Angmar and assualt Arnor from there and dol guldur. While this would be happening armiews from mordor would take minas tirith and rohan and Isengard from there they would just crush the rest. This would need careful planning and a great number of people though. He wouldn't have had that at the time of the hobit.
 

Ăšlairi

Crying in the Wilderness
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
1,965
Reaction score
6
Location
Down the rabbit hole...
But Beleg, they were thirteen dwarves and one hobbit to overcome! Sauron could have easily caught them before they reached Thranduil's kingdom. Gandalf was on his way to the Necromancer (Sauron). All Sauron had to do was go himself. Kill Bilbo and the rest of the company, take the Ring and he would be the ultimate ruler of ME!
 

Hirila

2009 - life is great
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Messages
428
Reaction score
0
Location
at Lake Zurich, Switzerland
And Sauron, that is, the Necromancer, didn`t know where the Ring was. He learned it from Gollum much later. All he could do at the time was try to become as powerful as possible. That he was driven out from Mirkwood was sheer bad luck for him.

There is another interesting question: what would have hapened if Sauron could`ve staid in Mirkwood? Would he sooner or later have gone to Barad-Dur, or would he have staid the Necromancer he was?
 

Wood Elf

Registered User
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Messages
118
Reaction score
1
Good question. You know, I always pictured the Necromancer to look like some horrid swamp creature from the old 50's movies! :D Lurking through the shadows and dark trees of Mirkwood, waiting...waiting for some unexpected ditzy blonde chic to come into his trap! (like in the movies) :D Heh heh!
 

Thread suggestions

Top