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Sauron with One Ring vs. Morgoth

Glaurung

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Could Sauron with the ring in his possession rival the might of Morgoth himself? Or is there no way a Maiar can defeat a Vala? Perhaps we'll never know. What do you all think?
 

Eonwe

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I guess I think of it this way:

Melian by herself is able to fend off anything Morgoth sends her way. But would she be able to defeat him in person? I think not. And even all of his creatures sent against her would probably easily defeat her. Yet she held Doriath out of evil for many thousands of years with Morgoth not far away.

Eonwe with the host of Vanyar and Elendil defeats the armies and creatures of Morgoth. But again would I stand up to Morgoth? I can only say that he had stupidly sucked most of his power out into his creatures before I got to him, so putting the chains on him and "hewing his feet beneath him" was pretty easy at this point? Who knows if anything including Tulkas could have defeated him in his original strength?
I think these are the only cases where we can see any interaction between Maia and Vala on either side of good and evil. And how did Sauron escape when Tulkas wrestled Melkor into chains the first time? Hmmm Hooom...

I guess I think of it this way:

Melian by herself is able to fend off anything Morgoth sends her way. But would she be able to defeat him in person? I think not. And even all of his creatures sent against her would probably easily defeat her. Yet she held Doriath out of evil for many thousands of years with Morgoth not far away.

Eonwe with the host of Vanyar and Elendil defeats the armies and creatures of Morgoth. But again would I stand up to Morgoth? I can only say that he had stupidly sucked most of his power out into his creatures before I got to him, so putting the chains on him and "hewing his feet beneath him" was pretty easy at this point? Who knows if anything including Tulkas could have defeated him in his original strength?
I think these are the only cases where we can see any interaction between Maia and Vala on either side of good and evil. And how did Sauron escape when Tulkas wrestled Melkor into chains the first time? Hmmm Hooom...
 
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Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Eonwe
I guess I think of it this way:

Melian by herself is able to fend off anything Morgoth sends her way. But would she be able to defeat him in person? I think not. And even all of his creatures sent against her would probably easily defeat her. Yet she held Doriath out of evil for many thousands of years with Morgoth not far away.

Eonwe with the host of Vanyar and Elendil defeats the armies and creatures of Morgoth. But again would I stand up to Morgoth? I can only say that he had stupidly sucked most of his power out into his creatures before I got to him, so putting the chains on him and "hewing his feet beneath him" was pretty easy at this point? Who knows if anything including Tulkas could have defeated him in his original strength?
I think these are the only cases where we can see any interaction between Maia and Vala on either side of good and evil. And how did Sauron escape when Tulkas wrestled Melkor into chains the first time? Hmmm Hooom...


Sauron with the put most of his strenght into the ring in its making and when it was lost he became less powerful so that says that with the ring he was the same as normal with just a few more positives (the other 19 rings)to rule. He was a maia and Melkor was a Vala he would have been crushed by the dark lord the real dark lord.
 

Bucky

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Exactly.
Sauron WITH the One Ring is only as powerful as Sauron BEFORE the One Ring....

Although, Tolkien clearly states that Morgoth poured his power into his evil creatures.
 
H

Harad

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Sauron WITH the One Ring is only as powerful as Sauron BEFORE the One Ring....
What was the point of the Ring then? Seems like an awful lot of trouble to divide his power, just so he can have the trouble of finding it periodically.

I guess the point of the RIng was to control the other Rings, thus increasing his overall power.
 

Bucky

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The Ring would increase his domination over other's wills, thus increasing his power.

But, there was also some secret to the Rings of Power which may very well have supplied more 'power' than the maker of the ring himself had.

Did Celebrimbor have enough 'power' in him to make the 3 Elvin Rings be so pwerful?
He DID come from the finest line in terms of heredity when it came to 'creating' these type of things.
His Granfather was Feanor, who created the Silmarills & I believe the palantiri, or at least the secret for making them.
And, it's stated that Celebrimbor's father, Curufin, inherited the greatest part of his father's talent in this area.
 

Lord Melkor

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Well Sauron is no foul and wouldn`t make The Ring without a good reason, I believe it is because of The Ring he managed to reform in 3rd Era, note that he was slain two times and reformed, yet I don`t remember any mentions of Balrogs returning after being defeated.

But he is still an eternal slave of my will!
 

Tar-Elenion

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Originally posted by Bucky
Exactly.
Sauron WITH the One Ring is only as powerful as Sauron BEFORE the One Ring...
"While he [Sauron] wore it [the One Ring], his power on earth was actually enhanced."
Letter 131
 

Tyaronumen

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Perhaps his power on Earth was enhanced, but I would not necessarily interpret this to mean that his native strength was increased when he had the Ring, but rather that his abilities (such as dominating the will of the holders of the other Great Rings) were increased.
 

Tar-Elenion

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"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay... But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor..."
"Sauron made the One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others..."
Letter 131
 

Mirak Dagan

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Sauron with the Ring at his full power during the Second Age VS Morgoth at his weakest during the end of the First Age would result in Morgoth getting rekt all day all night. A full power Sauron with the Ring can only be matched by Eonwe, one of the most powerful Maiar himself. On the other hand, if this were a 100% Pre-Arda Melkor then there'd be no contest at all since there's no one in Arda, Ea and the Time-less Hall that can stopped him except Illuvatar himself. A 70% Melkor already handled 14 Varlar include the likes of Manwe, Tulkas, Ulmo, Orome and etc. Another powerful Maiar wouldn't be a problem at all.
 

Hador

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Could Sauron with the ring in his possession rival the might of Morgoth himself? Or is there no way a Maiar can defeat a Vala? Perhaps we'll never know. What do you all think?
I do not think Sauron had ever been mightier than Morgoth, even when Morgoth was at his lowest point. In Morgoth's Ring I think it is shown that Morgoth was still "a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power" (Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion) even when he was a shell of himself. His diminishment should be looked at in comparison with his peers (this might mean all of the Valar, or just the Aratar).

Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion said:
We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar.
It is shown he did not even notice his diminishment among his servants because they were not near his level. It is when he saw his brother that he realized he had diminished because both could see the change in the scales of power.

Many of the maiar jumped ship and ran with Morgoth when they saw he was so powerful that the Valar could not restrain him. Would they stick with him if they saw they had become mightier than him? Would Sauron? I do not know that Sauron was very much enhanced while wearing the Ring (he was to some degree), but without the Ring in the First Age would he be able to see that Morgoth is no longer stronger than him, and vice-versa? Why not? I don't think he ever slipped below his followers in might.

I do not think Sauron rivaled Morgoths military might either. Morgoth had dragons, Sauron did not. He also had maiar in his service whether of the Balrogs, or possibly those who took on the shape of Orcs, "greater and more terrible" (Myths Transformed; Orcs). He also used trolls and had Elven smiths building his war machines.
 

CirdanLinweilin

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I do not think Sauron had ever been mightier than Morgoth, even when Morgoth was at his lowest point. In Morgoth's Ring I think it is shown that Morgoth was still "a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power" (Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion) even when he was a shell of himself. His diminishment should be looked at in comparison with his peers (this might mean all of the Valar, or just the Aratar).



It is shown he did not even notice his diminishment among his servants because they were not near his level. It is when he saw his brother that he realized he had diminished because both could see the change in the scales of power.

Many of the maiar jumped ship and ran with Morgoth when they saw he was so powerful that the Valar could not restrain him. Would they stick with him if they saw they had become mightier than him? Would Sauron? I do not know that Sauron was very much enhanced while wearing the Ring (he was to some degree), but without the Ring in the First Age would he be able to see that Morgoth is no longer stronger than him, and vice-versa? Why not? I don't think he ever slipped below his followers in might.

I do not think Sauron rivaled Morgoths military might either. Morgoth had dragons, Sauron did not. He also had maiar in his service whether of the Balrogs, or possibly those who took on the shape of Orcs, "greater and more terrible" (Myths Transformed; Orcs). He also used trolls and had Elven smiths building his war machines.
Well, Sauron did have Wargs, which are wolves possessed by evil spirits, but I don't know if these were of Maiar origin. Other than that detail, great post!

Welcome to the forum!!

CL
 

Might_of_arnor

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A servant mightier than his master? It is not unusual however I don't believe it works in saurons case.

Morgoth had far more powerful allies when compared with sauron (the lord of balrogs, the father of dragons and the greatest dragon who ever lived, a great wolf, he had a short alliance with maiar in spider form which devoured the two lights, not to mention hundreds of thousands of orcs, trolls and perhaps even numbered into the millions.

Which compares to saurons forces (a great servant known as the witch King, who's greatest feat was destroying an already declining arnor over the course of 7 or 9 centuries and evil men from the east) correct me if I didn't add anything greater to this list but it seems on their allies alone we know who would be the victor, their obvious status and might compared with each other would see morgoth triumph even if he was at his weakest and sauron at his strongest.
 

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