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Sauron's Duplicity

Tar-Palantir

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In the Second Age, Sauron, in disguise as Annatar, went among the different Elven enclaves as a benefactor. In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", it's said that the Noldor of Hollin opened their doors to him, but that the Elves of Lindon (Gil-galad & Elrond) didn't.

My questions:
1) Who (or what) did the Elves think Sauron was? An Elf? A Maia? Gil-galad and Elrond were getting bad vibes, so you would think that they would try and figure out who Annatar was.
2) Why didn't Celebrimbor get the same vibes? He was one of the house of Finwe as was Gil-galad.
 
H

Harad

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Most of the Elves were survivors from the First Age, so they would have been quite used to intervention from god-like sources: Maia and even Vala on occasion. The pantheon of such sources was apparently so large that they all were not identified.

Sauron, of course, had a day job as Morgoth's henchman in the First Age but was unaccounted for when Morgoth fell. Other entities in Morgoth's service were likewise unaccounted for.

Gil-galad thus might have been suspicious that this stranger bearing gifts was either one of these First Age Badguys in disquise or a Second Age version thereof.

Celebrimbor was more trusting, or so interested in obtaining the knowledge from this stranger that he suspended his disbelief, "whistling past the graveyard" of danger and causing no end of problems for the next 2 ages.
 

Tar-Palantir

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What gets me is the passivity of a lot of the leaders of the Free Peoples. Gil-galad sets up a kingdom in ME. This dude shows up at the door promising who knows what. Gil-galad gets the feeling Annatar's trouble. Wouldn't you make it your business to find out as much about this person as you could?
 
H

Harad

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Its a strength of the story and writing. Not only arent these heros "infallible." They are very fallible. Perhaps they are insular, maintain petty jealousies, and just uncaring of the world outside of their little kingdoms. Perhaps Gil-galad senses the guy is bad news, but couldnt care less if Celebrimbor takes the fall. Gil-galad doesnt realize until its too late that if Celebrimbor goes, then the rest of them are in trouble. The Elves were a decidely mixed bag of good and bad in the First Age. Why not in the Second Age as well?
 

Goro Shimura

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Okay... so Eve's in the garden of Eden and here comes this Serpent with a compelling proposition. Don't you think she would talk thing's over with Adam before jumping into anything?

You've got to understand: The world was young.

Cynicism hadn't been invented yet.
 

Goro Shimura

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The elves have an unnatural amount of optimism about them.

With Thangorodrim broken, they let their guard down.

It'd take them another half dozen "fruitless victories" and a couple thousand years of pleasureless boredom in a ruined world before they'd become like the typical post-modern generation 'x' sophisticat!

Besides... Sauron was rather Beguiling back in those days. And he knew exactly which desires to play on to most thoroughly deceive and ensnare.
 
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Tar-Palantir

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Originally posted by Harad
Its a strength of the story and writing. Not only arent these heros "infallible." They are very fallible. Perhaps they are insular, maintain petty jealousies, and just uncaring of the world outside of their little kingdoms. Perhaps Gil-galad senses the guy is bad news, but couldnt care less if Celebrimbor takes the fall. Gil-galad doesnt realize until its too late that if Celebrimbor goes, then the rest of them are in trouble. The Elves were a decidely mixed bag of good and bad in the First Age. Why not in the Second Age as well?
I hear ya. Elrond and Gandalf both in LOTR lament the fact that they (or their people) too often did nothing or took the easy way out.

Goro: if Eve had already had dealings with a serpent and bad things happened, she'd better think twice before dealing with one again. Like Harad said, after the First Age, you'd think that Gil-galad and friends would be almost paranoid about anything that didn't feel right.
 
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Harad

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It'd take them another half dozen "fruitless victories" and a couple thousand years of pleasureless boredom in a ruined would before they'd become like you, Harad!
My insult meter just got pegged. How sad that you can't discuss LOTR without this.

I guess there is something sad about some of the people on this forum. You don't know a thing about me, but without knowing you, I wouldnt trade my life of "pleasureless boredom in a ruined world" for yours. Insults generally tell you more about their issuers than their targets.
 

Eonwe

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Originally posted by Goroshimura
Okay... so Eve's in the garden of Eden and here comes this Serpent with a compelling proposition. Don't you think she would talk thing's over with Adam before jumping into anything?

You've got to understand: The world was young.

Cynicism hadn't been invented yet.
HAHA! Wonderful! I could eat this post up for breakfast! :)
 

baraka

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My insult meter just got pegged. How sad that you can't discuss LOTR without this.
You are right Harad, it lowers the standards of this forum in general and that of its members.
Hmmmm, Harad, you seem to have quite an "insult following". :(
Back to the thread:
Why didn't Celebrimbor get the same vibes? He was one of the house of Finwe as was Gil-galad.
Perhaps Celebrimor, being a craftsmen, just found the teachings of Sauron to good of a thing to pass up.
:)
 

Goro Shimura

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Originally posted by Harad


My insult meter just got pegged. How sad that you can't discuss LOTR without this.

I guess there is something sad about some of the people on this forum. You don't know a thing about me, but without knowing you, I wouldnt trade my life of "pleasureless boredom in a ruined world" for yours. Insults generally tell you more about their issuers than their targets.

Woooohh there, Compadre.... This is a misunderstanding.

I did not mean to single you out there as being a particularly not-so-nice person.... I really and truly actually meant that the level of cynicism that is common in our generation is something rather unique to the latter part Fourth Age. (Assuming this is still the Fourth Age.)

The reason I put your name in there is to emphasize the fact that it may be difficult for you to empathize with someone from this kind of unspoiled world-view.

[Removes hat and bows low.]
 

Grond

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Thank you for the clarification Goro, because I, too, took your comment to be specifically singling out Harad for being cynical, which he certainly isn't.

And, getting back on topic, Galadriel and Celeborn are as guilty as Celebrimbor. They were the Lords of Eregion of that time. They, too, welcomed Annator and of course, Galadriel was also of the House of Finwe. I think the key is in what the Elves were doing at the time. Gil-galad and Elrond were consolidating the Noldor and the Teleri that remained on Middle-earth and providing them with transport back to Aman. After the War, many of the Noldor had tired of Middle-earth and were anxious to return to Eressea.

Galadriel and Celeborn, on the other hand, were happy to have established a kingdom on Middle-earth where they could continue to 'create' using their skills. Celebrimbor had already begun work on the lesser Rings and would have been willing to welcome someone who could have imparted more knowledge. Remember, many assumed that Evil had been vanquished. It isn't said whether anyone really knew that Sauron wasn't accounted for. Many may have assumed that he was taken back to Vala and was paying his pennance.

Later as he developed the Great Rings, Galadriel and Celeborn did become suspicious of Annator and pressured Celebrimbor to break ties with him. Celebrimbor refused and his guild took power from Galadriel and Celeborn and forced them to take up residence with their son Amroth for a while and later to establish another kingdom of their own in the north near Annunimus. So, the real buffoon here seems to be Celebrimbor who like his ancestor Feanor, became so enamoured with the product of his hands that he failed to see the evil which used what he made to be a product of evil. (Sounds familiar doesn't it. Just like Silmarils, the Rings of Power had the same intent of good but were ultimately turned to tools of evil.)

That's my take on it anyway.
 

Bucky

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>>>
What gets me is the passivity of a lot of the leaders of the Free Peoples.
Gil-galad sets up a kingdom in ME. This dude shows up at the door promising
who knows what. Gil-galad gets the feeling Annatar's trouble. Wouldn't you
make it your business to find out as much about this person as you could?

1. Maybe Gil-Galad & Celebrimbor weren't on the best of terms, as the sons of Feanor vs the sons of Fingolfin & Finarfin was a long history of strife.
Maybe that's why Celebrimbor set up shop in Hollin to begin with. Maybe his people were the remains of those alligned with the Sons of Feanor. Yes, I know he was estranged from his father in Nargothrond, but he appears to be the only mentioned grandson of Feanor.
This 'strife' between the 2 does, however seem unlikely if Celebrimbor gave 2 of his rings to Gil-Galad. But, did he?
In 'Of The RoP & the 3rd Age' in The Silmarillion, it's stated '3 of the Rings they saved from him (Sauron) & bore them away' & they were given 'given into the hands of the Wise'.
Celebrimbor was deadby this time....

2. How easy was it to travel around ME & have warnings sent out to 'watch out for this Annatar guy' before he'd already arrived & 'bewitched' them?
Or send spies around to watch his every move without being noticed?
 
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Goro Shimura

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Okay guys...

(Tries again.)

It's a simple point.

The elves didn't have CNN. They did not have a CIA or MI6... and no super duper spy satellites.

They didn't (like the guys in the College Dorm TV lounge) spend hours sitting around the TV making fun of how stupid and implausible the show was that they were watching.

They did not grow up under the constant bombardment of advertisements and propaganda.

They were very innocent. And their gods-- real bonifide honest-to-goodness gods!-- had just rescued them from a great evil.

And yet they were not so completely innocent that Sauron didn't have some leverage to take advantage of.

The world was young.

Elves have more in common with children than they do with "generation X."


They simply were not as suspicious, streetwise, sophisticated, cynical, worldly-wise, sarcastic, pessimistic, and worldly-weary as what we take for granted as being average in our post-modern age.

I seriously think that it would take thousands of years of empty victories to make the elves gain those qualities to even half the degree that anyone in this forum has.
 

baraka

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So, the real buffoon here seems to be Celebrimbor who like his ancestor Feanor, became so enamoured with the product of his hands that he failed to see the evil which used what he made to be a product of evil.
Feanor made his silmarils WITHOUT the help of Melkor or anyone evil.:)

But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard. Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him. For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.
 

Grond

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Here is what is said on the matter in Unfinished Tales, Of Galadriel and Celeborn,
"In Eregion Sauron posed as an emmisary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ('thus anticipating the Istari') or ordered to remain there to give aid to the Elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience nad courtesy... ...Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mirdain; but he worked in secret unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mirdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celdeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age."

Later it states,
"Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron, and went to Lorinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength'. Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful; but its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return to the West, so that her joy in Middle-earth was diminished. Celebrimbor followed her cousel that the Ring of Air and the Ring of Fire should be sent out of Eregion; and he entrusted them to Gil-galad in Lindon."

The only explanation given for Gil-galad's and Elrond's rejection of Annatar, comes from the Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age where it states,
"...Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land."

As far as finding out more about him. I wonder how someone would do that? I wonder if they had a messenger service to the Vala? Would the Vala have given information concerning emmisaries to the Eldar remaining on Middle-earth? I don't know and if they did not, that would explain why he was perceived to be one of the Angelic order who had come to heal the strife and impart knowledge. Just a guess on my part.
 

aragil

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Grond- there is more on Gil-galad and Sauron in UT. The chapter about the Mariner King of Numenor and his Wife. Gil-galad sends a letter to the Mariner King's father, and it is because of this letter that the king retires and his son comes to the throne. I believe this was around SA 1000, so it was before anything bad went down in Eregion.
 

Tar-Palantir

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Grond: Thanks for that passage from UT. I had totally forgotten about it. Sauron posing as an emissary of the Valar would explain a lot and I find the phrase "or ordered to remain there to give aid to the Elves" interesting. What does that mean? That Sauron told the Elves that? Or that that's what the Elves (esp. Gil-galad) thought themselves?

As a side note, I seem to remember CT saying something at the beginning of "Of Galadriel and Celeborn" about many discrepencies between that tale and what ended up in the Sil & LOTR. But, alas!, I don't have my copy of UT at hand :(
 
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Harad

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from UT

Divergent versions need not indeed always be treated solely as a question of settling the priority of composition; and my father as "author" or "inventor" cannot always in these matters be distinguished from the "recorder" of ancient traditions handed down in diverse forms among different peoples through long ages (when Frodo met Galadriel in Lórien, more than sixty centuries had passed since she went east over the Blue Mountains from the ruin of Beleriand). "Of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone."
 

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