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Tauriel: Keep her, change her or remove her?

Elaini

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Is there anything you would have changed about Peter Jackson's (emphasis: not Tolkien's) character Tauriel?

I kind of like her in some ways, and I'm not against female elf warriors. Tolkien himself basically wrote that male and female elves are equal in everything but giving birth, though genders tend to be drawn to certain professions more, and male elves are more likely to become warriors.

Of course, it doesn't mean that females wouldn't do it at all, but being exposed to battle and death means the diminishing of other skills for the Elf kind, namely healing.

My real gripe about her is that she's misplaced and she's used to derail the canon storyline. I did think that it was very much like a teenage girl writing a Mary Sue for a fanfiction when she's basically both the love interest of Kili and Legolas. Definitely not something that I would have imagined Tolkien to write, and she doesn't make any sense when contemplating the mortal/immortal relationship dilemma. :rolleyes: Read about Beren and Lúthien if you wish to understand it.

Also, red hair is supposed to be super rare for the Elves. Only Mahtan's family was known to have it (Mahtan, Nerdanel, Maedhros, Amrod and Amras).

She would have been better off if she interacted more with the other Jackson invented original characters instead of the canon ones. Kili was supposed to go into the Lonely Mountain with the rest of the Dwarves. Also, he was supposed to be blonde just like Fili...

Or maybe I shouldn't be arguing about this alternative universe Jackson created. :p People do that a lot now a days but I still prefer to stay loyal to canon details.

What I'm mostly concerned about is the first impression the movies give to people who never read the books.
 
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Miguel

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The whole thing about those two is not cute. This is cute:


I have no problem with the addition of new characters, just use them well.
Also, i don't like most of the Dwarves looking like Dwarves and others looking like men. Thorin looks more like someone from the house of Bëor than a Dwarf. All Dwarves should look like little fatty Santas that would kick you in the leg if you get them pissed.
 

Elaini

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Cutest moment of Radagast, yes. But Ragadast is a Maia (basically an angel or demigod), for pity's sake... give him a bit more integrity than wearing bird poop as a fashion statement.

Yeah, you can tell I always liked Lotr movie trilogy more.
 

Squint-eyed Southerner

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I'm not against female elf warriors.
Yeah, I can imagine it happening; not something Tolkien envisioned for The Hobbit, perhaps, but well within the Silmarillion universe.

The Elf/Dwarf slashfic is absurd, of course, but no more ridiculous than most of PJ's other "improvements" -- bringing in the sandworms from Arrakis, for instance.
 

Galin

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The spice must flow.

Maedros, Amros, and the other Amros, did have -russa, -ros hair, but Nerdanel had brown hair and a ruddy complexion.

The way I read Tolkien's description (Laws And Customs) is: Eldarin-men fought at need -- had "jobs" as warriors, so to speak. And Eldarin-women fought in dire straits, or let's say, at great need -- like at the fall of Gondolin when the war-bands were too undone and at last the orcs were "at the door".

Jackson can say that Tauriel was no Elda in any case, and/or that customs varied according to both time and place -- according to Tolkien himself, despite what the author of L&C appears to conclude about this.

And I can say, Tauriel who? ;)
 

Elaini

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The Elf/Dwarf slashfic is absurd, of course, but no more ridiculous than most of PJ's other "improvements" -- bringing in the sandworms from Arrakis, for instance.
Or the dwarven flying devices of flying blades slicing slow flying elf arrows...
Or legolas being able to fly and control a giant bat all while killing every orc on his path in a way that a HEMA expert would call ridiculous...

Thranduil is one of the few upsides, but then they gave him the Phantom of the Opera scar from a dragon that he's hiding with some illusion...

One thing I really, really wished to see - leave the canon characters alone.
 

Miguel

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bringing in the sandworms from Arrakis, for instance.
So those worms are not in the book or anywhere in the mythos?.

EDIT:
Hmm nevermind, i just read about this "Were-worms". While they are something i could imagine existing in Middle-earth, they did felt a bit off when i saw them, mainly because of them troops coming out of them. It was a little Starwar-ish, or Dune-ish i guess?. I'm not familiar with Dune.
 
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Squint-eyed Southerner

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I haven't tried to find a PJ justification for them, but it's possible he got the idea from Gandalf's words in "The White Rider":
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.
Took it, and ran with it.

There are hints in The Hobbit, as discussed here:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/riddles-in-the-dark-creatures-nosing-about-older-than-orcs-and-goblins.23690/

None of which indicate anything remotely sandworm-size.
 
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CirdanLinweilin

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I haven't tried to find a PJ justification for them, but it's possible he got the idea from Gandalf's words in "The White Rider":

Took it, and ran with it.

There are hints in The Hobbit, as discussed here:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/riddles-in-the-dark-creatures-nosing-about-older-than-orcs-and-goblins.23690/

None of which indicate anything remotely sandworm-size.

I remember that thread.






Not that anyone notices.








Yeah, the worms are #346991 of what take me out of the films.




CL
 

Eebounnie

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I think Tauriel could have been an interesting character...but sadly for me she's not.
The relashionship between her and Kili is asburd, they could be friend but "lover"? If you know a bit of Tolkien lore, well it's simply impossible.

As said previously she's pretty much the cliché of the "Mary-Sue". She could be an healer and a guard without the love story. I really don't understand the need to add romance in everywhere.
 

Gilgaearel

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I would definitely remove this character. She doesn't comply with any of the elvish female characteristics as Tolkien described them at least, not to mention that in Middle Earth's universe elvish women didn't have to be warriors, even though they could. Elvish men were more than capable to deal with their wars without needing to recruit their women.
 

CirdanLinweilin

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I would definitely remove this character. She doesn't comply with any of the elvish female characteristics as Tolkien described them at least, not to mention that in Middle Earth's universe elvish women didn't have to be warriors, even though they could. Elvish men were more than capable to deal with their wars without needing to recruit their women.
Off topic, but glad to hear from you again on here!


CL
 

Pengolodh

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I have no problem with Tauriel existing, and existing as a female captain of the Mirkwood guard. (From a filmmaker's perspective: they probably imagined there would be plenty of bad press if the film featured no female characters; from a canon perspective there is no reason at all that a decent percentage of Mirkwood's guard couldn't be female.) Had she existed as the captain of Mirkwood's guard, and an acquaintance of Legolas, and had that been all, I probably would have liked her.

That being said, what I found nigh unforgivable (leaving questions of canon entirely aside for the moment) was the choice to invent a main female character and then make her entire existence centred around a love triangle. A wholly implausible love triangle, at that. And one that had not only had no basis whatsoever in the source material, but directly contradicted things that Tolkien wrote. There are a lot of issues with the Hobbit films, but the Legolas-Tauriel-Kili love triangle is - for me - the most egregious.

(The idea that audiences will only like / go to see films that have romance plot-lines is one that needs to be done away with, for good, in my opinion!)
 

Miguel

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I wish they could make a documentary covering THOME before the new show comes out, but with well made live action scenes and all. A 4 hour long documentary, do it please.
 

Elaini

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That being said, what I found nigh unforgivable (leaving questions of canon entirely aside for the moment) was the choice to invent a main female character and then make her entire existence centred around a love triangle. A wholly implausible love triangle, at that.
Well it's not only the mortal/immortal pairing (extremely rare) that makes it implausible.

It's also the relationship between Dwarves and the Sindar which Tauriel is supposed to be. Ever since the waking up of Dwarves the Sindar are the ones out of all elves who have had the most conflicts with them. The Sindar used to hunt Dwarves as "beasts" when they didn't know who they were. A group of Dwarves killed King Thingol of Doriath, triggering long term antipathies among the Sindar (such as Oropher or Celeborn) against Dwarves.

But I doubt that Jackson or del Toro were actually too much aware of such details.

And then suddenly, a vague talk about walking in starlight triggers a romance... they might as well have talked about the weather.
 

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