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The answer to Saruman's Ring

Úlairi

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I have posted this thread before, but it did not get the attention is deserved, so I am posting it again hoping to get the answers I want. Don't be afraid to post, an opinion is neither right nor wrong, so, post away! Now, we know that Saruman had quite an extensive knowledge on the Lore of the Rings. Gandalf said in the Council of Elrond that:

"He ever goes deeper into the Lore of the Rings, finding the lost secrets of their making."
Gandalf says later in the chapter:

"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger."
Saruman says later in the chapter:

"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"
Now it says that Saruman wore a ring on his finger, that he was ever looking for the lost secrets of the making of the Rings of Power and he even said that he was a Ring-maker!!! This therefore brings me to the conclusion that Saruman made a Ring of Power for himself!!! Yet I do not remember nor believe that there is any reference to Saruman's Ring ever again! So, with these quotes, do you guys think that Saruman made a Ring of Power or not??? OPINIONS PLEASE!!!

I have posted this thread before, and it was never answered properly as I had hoped, I am not posting it again for answers. I am posting it again for those who have remembered this thread and have always wanted to know the answer. So here it is from the seventh volume of 'The History of Middle-earth: The Treason of Isengard' on page 138. This is what Christopher Tolkien writing in the form of a note on the subject:

"I cannot make out the two concluding words, though the first might be 'gathered'. But whatever the words are, the meaning is clearly that Saruman had acquired the last of the Rings - and wore it on his finger, as appears subsequently in the this text."
Amongst all this, I have one more question that I would dearly love answered. Which of the Twenty Rings of Power was the last?
 
M

Mormegil

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I think that if Saruman did make his own Ring of Power, he lacked the skill of the Elves in adding power to his ring. His ring seems to grant him no extra power.

As for the last of the 20 rings.
options...
1)The last to be made. The One Ring. This is clearly not the ring that Saruman acquired.
2)The last that Sauron reclaimed. Not one of Nine. Not one of Three. Not the One.
I think this is the answer. Maybe Saruman got hold of one of the Seven Dwarven Rings. Which Sauron supposed had been destroyed by Dragon fire.
 

Lantarion

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That's exactly what I would say. The Dwarf-rings were the only ones that were not accounted for in the War of the Ring, and 'the last' of the Rings of Power would definately mean the last one that was found.
 

Gamil Zirak

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Dwarve Rings?

Saron had three Dwarven rings and the other four were suposedly consumed by dragons. I wish Tolkien had gone into more detail of the history and lore of the Dwarves. The only ring I can think of is Thráin's and that was recovered in the dungeons of the Necromancer. Does anyone know anything else of the other rings?
 

Gil-Galad

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Well I think that Pontifex is right as usual.In fact some of the rings for the dwarves are lost for Sauron.So it's logical one of them to be Saruman's ring.
The last ring is the one ,cause if it's the most powerful ,it should be the last of all .,but I'm not sure.....:)
 

Greenwood

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Quote by Ulairi
I have posted this thread before, and it was never answered properly as I had hoped, I am not posting it again for answers. I am posting it again for those who have remembered this thread and have always wanted to know the answer. So here it is from the seventh volume of 'The History of Middle-earth: The Treason of Isengard' on page 138. This is what Christopher Tolkien writing in the form of a note on the subject:
I am not sure what you mean by "never answered properly as I had hoped". If you thought you had an answer to your question why did you post the question? And if you are saying that the answer is that Saruman had one of the 19 rings based on the passage you quote from The Treason of Isengard volume of HoLOTR, I am afraid you are wrong. The material presented in all the HoLOTR volumes are Tolkien's various early drafts. Much was changed in the final version of LOTR. What you have presented is a version that Tolkien never used. Saruman's ring is not one of the 19. In the version that you are referring to Radagast the Brown was Radagast the Grey, Shadowfax was Greyfax and Boromir was from the Land of Ond, among other differences. In the final version in LOTR Saruman had made his own ring in imitation of the rings of power. It was not one of them.

In answer to your other question, the "last" ring made was clearly the One Ring of Sauron. All others predate it.
 

Eomer Dinmention

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I partly think that Sauruman serving under Sauron, Sauron must of gave one of the dwarven rings to Sauruman.

But if Sauruman made a ring for himself, we must know that it gave him no power at all. If the ring gave him alot of power, how come he didn't use it?
 

Úlairi

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Originally posted by Greenwood


I am not sure what you mean by "never answered properly as I had hoped". If you thought you had an answer to your question why did you post the question? And if you are saying that the answer is that Saruman had one of the 19 rings based on the passage you quote from The Treason of Isengard volume of HoLOTR, I am afraid you are wrong. The material presented in all the HoLOTR volumes are Tolkien's various early drafts. Much was changed in the final version of LOTR. What you have presented is a version that Tolkien never used. Saruman's ring is not one of the 19. In the version that you are referring to Radagast the Brown was Radagast the Grey, Shadowfax was Greyfax and Boromir was from the Land of Ond, among other differences. In the final version in LOTR Saruman had made his own ring in imitation of the rings of power. It was not one of them.

In answer to your other question, the "last" ring made was clearly the One Ring of Sauron. All others predate it.
No Greenwood, you are the one who is wrong. CT made the comment:

"The meaning is clearly that Saruman had acquired the last of the Rings - and wore it on his finger, as appears subsequently in the this text."
Chrostopher Tolkien specifically made the point that Saruman had the last of the rings.

In answer to your other question, the "last" ring made was clearly the One Ring of Sauron. All others predate it.
Gee, you think? Of course I know that, you know Greenwood that I know that! What I believe Tolkien meant was that Saruman had the last of the rings found which was inevitably one of the dwarven rings which Saruman beat Sauron to finding it.
 

Gamil Zirak

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Ulairi - Do you think Sarumon has the ring (Thror's Ring) Thráin was wearing when we was captured and before he lost his marbles?
 

Úlairi

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That's a great way of putting it shiloh53, before he lost his marbles! That's a good one. No, I do not not believe that Saruman had Thrain's Ring, Sauron did. Of the seven dwarven rings Sauron found three, and the rest were believed to be destroyed. I believe that Saruman found one of the dwarven rings, a fourth, that Sauron had missed seeing and Saruman had recovered it.
 

Greenwood

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Ulairi

CT's comments refer to a version of the story that was considered but never used by Tolkien. It was not used in the final version. Saruman's ring was not one of the dwarves' rings. The seven are all accounted for as Gandalf says to Frod in The Shadow of the Past and again at the Council of Elrond. From The Shadow of the Past: "Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed."

If you are going to argue that Saruman's ring was one of the dwarves' rings than you have to say that Aragorn (or perhaps it should be Trotter) was the king of Ond.
 

Úlairi

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Come on Greenwood, Gandalf wasn't right 100% of the time! I mean look, he was wrong for taking the Fellowship through Moria and he paid the price for being wrong. I believe that it is a distict possibility that it may be the fourth of the dwarven rings. Tolkien did not discredit the fact that Saruman had a ring, he clearly has it in LotR, and there is no other reference to Saruman's ring anywhere. Perhaps Tolkien chose not to elaborate on Saruman's ring and thought he'd leave it to another book he may publish or one his son CT, may publish. There is no evidence to prove that it couldn't be the fourth of the dwarven rings and you know it. I still believe that the fact it was one of the four, not three dwarven rings is still a possibility.
 

Gamil Zirak

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I think it's a very real possibility as well. No one knows for sure that the other four were consumed by Dragons. It's just an assumption that they were because we don't know any different. It was also assumed that the One ring was either lost for ever or had been washed out to sea. Besides, Dwarves are very secretive folk and would never speak openly about their rings. I don't think they even told the Dwarves in their realm that weren't in the line of the kings that they had them.
 

Greenwood

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Ulairi

The quotes you provided from LOTR disprove your contention.

"He ever goes deeper into the Lore of the Rings, finding the lost secrets of their making."
and

"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"
The above quotes are from the final version of LOTR and clearly show that Saruman made the ring he wore. You have presented nothing from the published LOTR to demonstrate that Gandalf's statement:

"Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed."
is open to question or debate.

LOTR is not an actual history of real occurrences where some newly discovered documents can change the events in presented in history books. The events are whatever Tolkien clearly says they were in his published version of LOTR. Drafts of the novel can show us Tolkien's thinking as he wrote the book, but they cannot be substituted for the final version.
 

Greenwood

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Originally posted by shiloh53
I think it's a very real possibility as well. No one knows for sure that the other four were consumed by Dragons. It's just an assumption that they were because we don't know any different. It was also assumed that the One ring was either lost for ever or had been washed out to sea. Besides, Dwarves are very secretive folk and would never speak openly about their rings. I don't think they even told the Dwarves in their realm that weren't in the line of the kings that they had them.
Shiloh53

That four of the dwarves' rings were consumed by dragons is not presented in the book as a conjecture. It is stated as a fact. Unless there is something else written in LOTR to dispute this statement of fact there is no valid reason to question it. So far I have seen nothing presented here that would place Gandalf's statement in question.
 

Gamil Zirak

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I think it's debatable whether they were consumed or not. Tolkien doesn't mention anything about the other six clans of Dwarves. Does that mean they don't exist? Also, the original version of the Hobbit had a diferent story for how Bilbo got the ring. The LOTR telling of it disputes that story. We'll just have to wait until we get to Heaven to ask Tolkien for the truth.
 

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I guess the assumption here is that the ring on Saruman's finger, if magical, must have been one of the Rings of Power, of which only one of dwarven is not necessarily accounted for. What if that ring was one of a lesser rings that are still somewhat magical (made by elves before they acquired the knowledge needed to forge the Rings of Power)? As Gandalf said (NOT an exact quote) There are many [magical] rings, some more dangerous than the others.
 

Greenwood

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Originally posted by shiloh53
I think it's debatable whether they were consumed or not. Tolkien doesn't mention anything about the other six clans of Dwarves. Does that mean they don't exist? Also, the original version of the Hobbit had a diferent story for how Bilbo got the ring. The LOTR telling of it disputes that story. We'll just have to wait until we get to Heaven to ask Tolkien for the truth.
You have presented no justification for calling the fate of the dwarves' rings debatable.

What is your basis for saying "the other six clans of Dwarves"?

As for the The Hobbit, Tolkien changed the story of how Bilbo acquired the Ring in later editions so there is no dispute between LOTR and The Hobbit. He even incorporated the fact of the change between editions into the story by saying that Bilbo had earlier given a different version essentially under the influence of the Ring to strengthen his claim on it.

If you are going to allow Tolkien's thinking in drafts of LOTR to change what is in the final published version you might as well change Aragorn back into a hobbit named Trotter.
 

Ragnarok

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Saruman studied Ring-lore, and he called himself Ring-maker, so I believe that he made his own ring in imitation of the Rings of Power, but it did not come out that powerful.
 

Greenwood

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Originally posted by pohuist
I guess the assumption here is that the ring on Saruman's finger, if magical, must have been one of the Rings of Power, of which only one of dwarven is not necessarily accounted for. What if that ring was one of a lesser rings that are still somewhat magical (made by elves before they acquired the knowledge needed to forge the Rings of Power)? As Gandalf said (NOT an exact quote) There are many [magical] rings, some more dangerous than the others.
The ring on Saruman's finger is clearly a ring of his own devising in imitation of Sauron ("For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!") The dwarves' rings are all accounted for. At the Council of Elrond Gloin reports that one of the reasons for Balin's attempt at Moria was the hope of finding the last unaccounted for ring of the dwarves. Surely the dwarves know what happened to their rings. They do not dispute Gandalf's story.
 

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