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The Evil Thread

Khôr’nagan

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Oh, and another thing.... How could a measly hound have possibly overcome Sauron, a Maia? It doesn't seem to make much sense to me. The difference in power should have been obvious, be Huan a hound of Valinor or not.
 

Roilya

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those are good questions khor, but i thought Sauron made his ring after Numenor was destroyed.
 

Khôr’nagan

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So had I, but then reading what the Guide to Middle-earth had under Sauron, well...

(Q: ‘abominable’) Ainu, one of the Maiar of Aulë. Seduced by Melkor early in the First Age, Sauron became the chief of his servants and anchored the front line of his defense against the Valar and Eldar. While Melkor dwelt in Utumno, Sauron held Angband; he escaped capture during the Battle of the Powers.

When Melkor returned to Middle-earth with the Silmarils, Sauron joined him in Angband and even directed the War during Melkor’s attempt to corrupt men soon after their awakening. After the breaking of the Siege of Angband, Sauron again ventured forth to secure Melkor’s southwestern front. In 457 he took Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion, filling it with his werewolves and opening West Beleriand to the ravages of Orcs. A few years later Sauron secured Dorthonion by capturing Gorlim and using a sorcerous trick to make him betray Barahir’s outlaws. In 466 Sauron captured Finrod and Beren, overcame Finrod in a wizard’s duel, and killed Finrod and his Elves one by one in his dungeons. But retribution came soon after, when Lúthien and Huan came to rescue Beren. After Huan slew his werewolves, Sauron assumed wolf form and fought the hound. Overcome by Huan’s strength and Lúthien’s magic, Sauron surrendered the tower and fled in vampire form to Taur-nu-Fuin, dreadful but passive, for the rest of the First Age.

After the Great Battle Sauron submitted to Eönwë, but was told that he would have to return to Aman to be judged by the Valar. Although his repentance may have been sincere, his pride would not allow him to endure such humiliation, and he fled and hid himself somewhere in Middle-earth. About SA 500 he began to reveal himself again, and by 1000 he had gathered enough power to establish a stronghold in Mordor and began building the Barad-dûr. In the long millennia of the Dark Years, Sauron corrupted many races of Men. Under the name Annatar [S.: ‘gift-lord’] and wearing a fair body, he seduced many groups of Elves, notably the Gwaith-i-Mírdain of Eregion. The combination of Sauron’s skill and Noldorin creativity enriched both parties, until about 1500 they began forging the Rings of Power, by which Sauron hoped to ensnare the Free Peoples. Sauron placed much of his power in the One Ring, with which he completed the Barad-dûr. When Celembrimbor of Eregion discovered Sauron’s treachery with the Rings, Sauron resorted to force and began the War of the Elves and Sauron (1693-1700), in which he destroyed Eregion and overran Eriador, but was defeated by Gil-galad and a fleet sent to Middle-earth by Tar-Minastir of Númenor.

After this Sauron revealed himself openly, gathering in his service Orcs and other monsters of Morgoth, ruling great areas (especially in the east) by force and terror, and apparently converting his vassals to the worship of Melkor, for Sauron remained ever true in his allegiance. In his pride Sauron claimed the title King of Men, thus arousing the equal pride of the Kings of Númenor. In 3262 Ar-Pharazôn landed in Umbar with a vast force. Deserted by his armies, Sauron was forced to submit to Ar-Pharazôn, who took him back to Númenor. In fifty years Sauron played on the Númenoreans’ fear of death so effectively that the majority utterly repudiated the Valar and worshiped Melkor at Sauron’s Temple. Finally he persuaded Ar-Pharazôn to seize immortality by invading Aman. To his surprise, the Valar reacted by calling on Ilúvatar; Sauron’s body was caught in the terrible catastrophe of the destruction of Númenor, and thereafter he was unable to assume a fair-seeming form.

Sauron returned to Mordor and marshaled his forces. In 3429 he attacked Gondor, taking Minas Ithil and destroying the White Tree, a hated symbol of the Light of Aman. In 3434, however, he was defeated in the Battle of Dagorlad by the army of the Last Alliance and was besieged in the Barad-dûr. In 3441, in a final battle on the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil, but killed both his foes. Isildur cut off his finger and took the Ring.

In the Third Age, without the One Ring which formed the base of his power, Sauron was extremely cautious. His policy was twofold: to weaken the Dúnedain kingdoms without provoking massive retaliation, and to recover the Ring. The latter policy was clouded by Sauron’s uncertainty about the fate of the Ring, which should have been destroyed by Isildur. After Sauron rose again about TA 1000, he hid his identity and was known as the Necromancer or Sorcerer of Dol Guldur. Since Mordor was guarded by Gondor, he dwelt in Dol Guldur. About 1300 he began to attack the Free Peoples, especially the Dúnedain. He sent the Lord of the Nazgûl to the North, where he founded Angmar. In the South, Sauron stirred up the Haradrim and the Easterlings against Gondor.

After the Great Plague of 1636, which may have been sent by Sauron, Gondor’s watch on Mordor was relaxed, and the Nazgûl reentered that realm and prepared it for Sauron. In 2002 the Nazgûl took Minas Ithil, thus obtaining a palantír for Sauron, which he later used to ensnare Saruman and trick Denethor II. In 2063, Gandalf went to Dol Guldur to learn the identity of the Necromancer, but Sauron fled to the East. He returned to Dol Guldur in 2460 with increased strength and renewed his plot until 2941, when he was driven out of Dol Guldur by the White Council. Sauron willingly retreated to Mordor, where he openly proclaimed himself, rebuilt the Barad-dûr, and prepared to defeat the West by overwhelming Gondor and the smaller realms of the North with his vast armies of Orcs, trolls, Haradrim, Easterlings, and creatures more foul. Even though Sauron did not have the Ring, its very existence gave him enough strength to crush the West. Gandalf and Elrond, realizing this, saw the only way to defeat Sauron was to destroy the Ring. Frodo Baggins volunteered to undertake the Quest of Mount Doom and, escaping Sauron’s servants searching for him and the Ring, destroyed the Ring in the Fire of Doom. The Nazgûl were destroyed and Sauron so weakened that he was unable to take shape ever again.

It is almost impossible to describe all the plots of Sauron, the master of deceit and treachery, and so only an outline of his policies is presented here. Among Sauron’s other accomplishments stand the invention of the Black Speech; the creation of the Nazgûl, his most powerful servants, ensnared by the Nine Rings of Men; and the breeding of the Olog-hai, and perhaps, the Uruk-hai.

After the ruin of his body in the destruction of Númenor, Sauron had the form of a Man; his skin was black and burning hot. In the Third Age he most frequently appeared as a fearsome, ever-searching Eye.

Sauron comes from the earlier Quenya form Thauron; the Sindarin name was Gorthaur the Cruel. Also called Sauron the Deceiver, the Lord of the Earth (in the Second Age), the Enemy, the Master, the Dark Power, the Dark Lord, the Lord of Mordor, the Dark Lord of Mordor, the Power of the Black Land, the Black Master, the Black One, the Lord of Barad-dûr, the Lord of the Dark Tower, and the Shadow. He was also called, attributively, the Great Eye, the Red Eye, the Eye of Barad-dûr, the Lidless Eye, and the Evil Eye. Also called the Unnamed, the Nameless, the Nameless One, the Nameless Eye, and He or Him. Also the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Ring, and the Ringmaker. Also, by Gollum, the Black Hand. (I 81, 82, 83, 260, 318, 328-29, 377, 471-72, 519; ’93 ed. 75-76, 77, 238, 292, 301, 344, 430, 472; ‘01 ed. 55, 56, 57, 218-19, 272, 281, 324, 408-10, 451. II 21, 43, 300-01; ’93 ed. 20, 42, 280-81; ’01 ed. 6, 27, 264-65. III 190-91, 275, 278-79, 391-93, 408, 415, 416, 417, 453-55, 456 ff., 511, 512, 515; ’93 ed. 171-72, 248, 252, 354-55, 369, 377-78, 415-16, 420 ff., 473, 476; ’01 ed. 160-62, 239-40, 242-43, 345-47, 359, 366, 367, 368, 401-02, 404 ff., 458, 461. H 37; ’93 ed. 25; ’01 ed. 26. S 32, 47, 51, 141, 155-56, 162-63, 170-72, 174-75, 267, 270-77, 280-81, 285, 286-90, 292-94, 297, 299-304, 348, 364. B 26, 47, 53, 167, 187-88, 196, 206-08, 211-12, 329-30, 333-43, 353, 355-60, 363-65, 369, 372-77, 433, 457.)
I typed it up last night; I find it makes it easier to quote while allowing me to practice my typing skills.
 
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Roilya

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Yes, Happy New Year!!!! srry i havent been posting lately but my computer is acting up and everything(im at my friends house). so hope you all had a good new years party, and that the up coming year is a good one for you.
 

Khôr’nagan

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Ah, I've found something else to verify that the One Ring was made before he went to Númenor.

Originally from the Appendices of The Return of the King
Second Age:

1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

3262 Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; 3262-3310 Sauron seduces the king and corrupts the Númenoreans.
At first I had thought that maybe this Robert Foster (Author of The Complete Guide To Middle-Earth) had it wrong, but right out of the Return Of The King Appendices, it says the same. But therefore, since it's confirmed, how did he get the One Ring out of the destruction of Númenor without a body with which to carry it? Seems quite odd to me.
 
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K

Kahmûl

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At the battle of the last alliance were the Nazgûl fighting and what happened to them when the ring was cut from Saurons hand?
 

Khôr’nagan

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(Second Age) 2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the scepre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.
Also from the RotK Appendices, that verifies that they were there very much early enough to have been in the Battle of the Last Alliance, considering that Sauron was overcome upon Orodruin in 3441, almost 1200 years later. However, I know of nothing that tells of them being there; indeed, I know of nothing that the Nazgûl did until the Third Age.

Oh, and here's a scary thought: Apparently, the Nazgûl in LotR did in fact possess only a small fraction, a mere shadow of there power when Sauron had the One Ring.And knowing their strength when they are comparitively weak, how truly terrible would they be if Sauron had gotten the Ring? When weak, their cries make men quail and despair; so when strong, how potent would that cry be? And if the Witch King of Angmar was truly any match whatsoever to Gandalf when weakened, how much would the tides of such a battle shift?

Indeed, it is hard to imagine how strong their onslought would be when in their full strength.
 
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Kahmûl

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What I would like to know is that if the Nazgûl were this powerful when Sauron had the ring then if he knew he was almost defeated then he should have used them and the battle might have gone the other way.
 

Khôr’nagan

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Honostly, I do not know. I do not recall any passage telling either of the Nazgûl being in that battle or for what reason they were not there. I am afraid that I do not have the books within which it would be most likely be said (probably in Morgoth's Ring or Sauron Defeated), and otherwise have none that contain it. Should I descover these things, I shall post it. Indeed I shall try to find out by any means I have at my disposal.
 

Úlairi

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Khôr’nagan said:
Well, is there anything anyone else wants to know? I'm all ears.
Yeah, I would like to join the Guild (as I am of evil origin myself!). ;)

Úlairi, túr ilúvë morë Nolmë a Ingolë! ;)
 

Úlairi

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Kahmûl said:
What I would like to know is that if the Nazgûl were this powerful when Sauron had the ring then if he knew he was almost defeated then he should have used them and the battle might have gone the other way.
There is no real reference to it, but from The Tale of Years under the year 3441, the Nazgûl are mentioned fading into the shadows, and this is mentioned directly after the defeat of Sauron. So, I forsee two possible options. The Nazgûl did indeed fight, but were overcome by the hosts of the Last Alliance, or at least were partially destroyed when Sauron was defeated, or they were on another errand. I would guess trying to find the Ithryn Luin, because all of a sudden Sauron would realize that his host from the East wasnn't coming! :eek: Long live Morinehtar and Rómestámo! ;)
 

Khôr’nagan

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Sorry it took so long to post again but yes, úlairi, you may most certainly join, and I have already added you to the Member's List. Welcome, and thanks for the information! May Light have no hold over you or your endevours. ;)
 

Úlairi

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Khôr’nagan said:
Sorry it took so long to post again but yes, úlairi, you may most certainly join, and I have already added you to the Member's List. Welcome, and thanks for the information! May Light have no hold over you or your endevours. ;)
Thankyou kindly. ;)

Celebdraug, I would indeed say that Melkor was probably predestined to be the inherent evil of all, and can therefore never change, and he could never desire to, as he was not only 'fated' to be the evil side of Ëa, but being evil could actually not comprehend good itself, not understand it.
 

Khôr’nagan

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Indeed. Sauron had almost repentented (supposedly) after the War of Wrath, but his pride had held him back. Really only Morgoth could never repent, as he was the basis of Evil. Sauron wasn't always evil... He was merely turned. Melkor wasn't originally evil, but drove himself into evil and remained there. I don't think he could have ever repented... Not truthfully and wholly. That is, of course, excluding the ending of the world, when everyone would supposedly understand the entirety of Ilúvatar's mind and would sing a song greater even than the Ainulindalë. But that's the result of divine influence, and doesn't count.
 
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Kahmûl

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Was there a palantír on top of Barad-Dûr for Sauron to look into and if not then how was he able to look into it?
 

Khôr’nagan

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Supposedly yes. It was said that when he captured Minas Ithil he took its stone.

And come to think of it, definitely yes. Because Sauron had ensnared Saruman with a palantír, and Peregrin himself looked into the stone and found himself face to face with Sauron himself, and they strove against each other's wills until the point Peregrin was nearly driven mad, and was for a little while afterwards.

So yes, there was a palantír in the Barad-dûr for Sauron's use.
 

Khôr’nagan

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Guild name has been changed to Noss en Lomë for purposes of being displayed among the other Major Guilds. I have been informed that Noss en Daebar was inaccurate, and Noss en Lomë was given as an alternative, meaning "Clan of Shadows."

It is now my understanding that the guild will shortly be upgraded, though exactly when I am not sure. I for one am more than glad, as this guild has lost much of its former activity, and hopefully this will serve to rejuvinate it.
 

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