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The Evil Thread

Roilya

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sorry i have not posted in so long, my computer is broken. i have a question about Gandalf, and how he appeared so weak. Wasnt he the wisest of Maia? well he cant be that weak he did beat a balrog, but in the first ages elves killed alot of balrogs. i dont know, any answers? i dont know when my comp is going to be fixed or wether we will get a new one. but i will try to post whenever i get near a working computer.
 

Khôr’nagan

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Concerning the killings of Balrogs in the First Age, Tolkien changed his mind about their power at some point, possibly when writing Lord of the Rings, and made them more powerful. A number that was said to me was that, after Tolkien had rethough Balrogs, only about 7 had ever existed, instead of the apparent dozens that there were before he made the change. But he never got around to changing the Silmarilion's texts and others such, dying before he got the chance to do so.

Concerning Gandalf's power, I assume you mean in the Movie versions, and under than pretense I may say that the movies did a poor job in portraying many things (in my opinion), and this issue of Gandalf's power being but one. Gandalf, after returning as the White, was immune to any physical harm that could be inflicted by anything other than weapons wrought with certain spells or powers, and even then I'm not sure if they could hurt him. No normal sword or arrow or axe could do any harm to him, whether it would simply be repelled before striking him or burst into pieces, I am not certain, though I would think most likely the latter. He was also more in touch with his innate powers as a Maia, being less constricted by his form when he was sent back, so as to better enable him to complete his task. He seems to have feared the Witch King in the books, even after his rebirth, which might indicate that he was not immune to its weapons, but even so he was more powerful.

In the Movies, however, I distinctly recall an incident where Pippin, trying to enlist Gandalf's aid in saving Faramir, slew an Orc who was supposedly about to strike down Gandalf, and Gandalf seemed to give him an appreciative look. And yet Gandalf would not have been harmed by that blow, so either he was simply admiring the Hobbit's kill, or the movie did a bad portrayal of him and he was thankful to Pippin for having been saved. Regardless, however, the Movie did little to support the idea that he was immune to physical harm, and even gave the impression that he was succeptable to it.

Therefore, if it is the movie that you speak of Gandalf's seemingly little power, then I would advise you to ignore it. But I must also say that he only reveals his true strength when need demands him to do so. Unless he were again faced with a Balrog, I do not think that you would have seen Gandalf do anything that comes even close to his true power. Like the Ents, his strength is only roused when great circumstances arise, but when that happens, you'd best run for your Hobbit hole.
 

Isthir

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Would those of the Dark decent take up arms with a wandering Student of Lore?

In otherwards, I would like to join, if that is fine with all of you.

-Isthir
 

Isthir

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I thank you most graciously. If there are any tasks you wish of me, simply tell me and they shall be done with all possible speed.

-Isthir
 

Isthir

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May I ask, then, if there are any projects being worked on by the Guild at this time? For I need an outlet for my excitement and delvment into the lore of Arda, however my mind cannot, at this time, find a way to release this.

-Isthir
 

Khôr’nagan

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Well, since you insist, I have been wondering how Sauron managed to escape the destruction of Númenor while having his body destroyed and yet still possess the One Ring and bring it with him to Mordor. I posed this question earlier in the thread, but it seems to have been forgotted (by myself aswell).

I do have direct evidence that the One Ring was made before Sauron was taken prisoner by Ar-Pharazôn and the Fall of Númenor, and yet Sauron's body was destroyed in Númenor's destruction. How could he have therefore escaped with the Ring and yet without any physical form? He could not have left it behind (I would think) because supposedly without the Ring he would be too diminished to have physical form and would thus have had to be wearing the Ring so long as he dwelt in his physical shell. But can a spirit carry a physical object when it itself is without physical form?

Well, there you have it... I would greatly desire this question to be answered, and since you ask, I tell. But do not kill yourself trying to solve it, I am in no rush to learn the answer.
 

Isthir

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A challenging topic to write on indeed. I shall post that which I can as soon as it is accessable (and readable). I hope I don't let you down.

-Isthir
 

Khôr’nagan

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The only way I would be let down would be if you were to discover that Tolkien had made a mistake. Anything else, even no information, would not be a let down.
 

Isthir

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I do not believe that Tolkien made mistakes, but this is a personal view.

-Isthir
 

Khôr’nagan

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Same with me, and that's why if it turned out this was a mistake, that would completely destroy my view of a perfect Tolkien. :D
 

Isthir

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I plan on having the 'essay' done and posted by tomara. I shall name this essay Luumequenta-Morfëa. I, however, cannot make promises though.

-Isthir
 

Isthir

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Luumequenta - Morfëa

Luumequenta – Morfëa
Composed by Isthir

As it is told in the Akallabêth, the Númenóreans were banned from sailing to Aman. This Ban was broken, however, by the King Ar-Pharazôn after taking Sauron hostage and soon listening to the Maia’s dark lies. So it was that the world was changed and Sauron, along with the Island of the Númenor, fell into the Abyss. There after Sauron returned to the Barad-dûr still with The One. Here the problem comes into play; if Sauron had the Ring with him in Númenor, how did he transport it back into the East?

The question of if the One was with its master in Númenor seems a bit naïve to this author. If one takes a look at the Akallabêth in The Silmarillion, they will find this passage:

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among these whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race.
This would suggest that even the great Númenóreans were easily insnared by the power of the One. More concrete evidence can be found in The Silmarillion that would raise the question of why Sauron would ever be without it.

From The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring….And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of these that wore them.


Therefore, there would be no reason to abandon that rule, along with much of his own self, to go to Númenor. Yet the most undeniable evidence can be found in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkein #211:

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.


With that question answered, the focus can turn to the transportation of The One back to Barad-dûr. To answer such a troubling question one must look into what Sauron truly is. As told in the Valaquenta, Sauron is a Maia who was formally of Aulë, but corrupted to join Melkor. What then is a Maia?

From The Silmarillion: Valaquenta – Of the Maiar
With the Valar came other spirits whose being began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of lesser degree. Tese are the Maiar….


Therefore, one can safely assume that the Maiar were Ainur before coming to Eä. What does this matter?

From The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë
Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue…..Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visable World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.


It is known that the Valar were Ainur as is believed the Maiar were. Why then would the shedding of a visible body not hinder the Valar in effecting the World, but the reverse for the Maiar. Sauron was reduced to just a spirit after the sinking of Númenor, but as above stated the ‘spirit’ of a Maia would still be able to act upon earthly possessions. It can be speculated that since the One Ring contained much of Sauron’s own self; it too passed out of eyes’ sight (though this remains to be speculation). Though Tolkien never gave a plain answer, I shall conclude with the closest answer he gave in his own words:

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: #211
Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended
 

Confusticated

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Hello,

I like to take a look at Arda from an evil point of view. I think I'd fit in an evil guild. Right now I am in the GoO but I have never been very active there... pretty much only in the debate tounrament. If you have anything for me to do here and would accept me as a member, I'd contribute and will resign from GoO... where I don't really fit in or feel a part of the guild.
 

Holdwine

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I see no reason why you wouldn't be accepted. So I would like to welcome and have an evil day.
 

Confusticated

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There is always an evil day to be had.

Unless there is something I might busy myself with right now, I'll toss together something of an essay.... maybe a look through the eyes of despair at a conversation between Finrod and a mortal lady who had no hope for Men who had fallen under Morgoth's shadow, and she thought, were estranged forever from whatever thier original purpose had been... being doomed to whither and die without hope in a world where Morgoth was Lord... Eru & Valar forsaken.
 

Isthir

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Welcome indeed Nom! I do await any works your may compose eagerly.

May the shadow smile upon you,
Isthir
 

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