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The Grey Havens

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dj_fle

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What are the Grey Havens??
Is it a place where old people that aren't dead yet go to die??
 

Grond

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Read The Lord of the Rings and find out. I wouldn't want to spoil it for you. It can be found in the last chapter of Return of the King.

Welcome to the forum.
 
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dj_fle

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Yeah, I already read it, and wondered why some creatures get to go there and some just die. What happens when creatures die in a battle, for example?
 

Grond

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Firstly, only the Eldar race get to sail from the havens. They go to the further most West and dwell in the land of Aman or the "Blessed Realm". As was illustrated in the Return of the King, a few select members of other races were allowed to go there in their final days. (for example: Bilbo and Frodo; and, later, Samwise and Gimli) The elves went there, not to die, but to live forever in peace and health. The others went there to live out their days in blessed happiness.

As to your question of what happens when they die in battle, for example. Elves can die by wound or malice and when they die, they go to Mandos in the Halls of Waiting. Man is also believed to go under Mandos' jurisdiction upon death but to where their souls reside only Iluvator, Manwe and Mandos know for sure.

This is all spelled out in the Silmarillion. It's a difficult read but gives you the entire history of the world of Middle-earth.

I am not learned in where the souls of the other mortal denizens of the world of Middle-earth go upon death. Maybe someone more learned than I can point you in the right direction so we'll know where Hobbits & Dwarves & Trolls & Orcs go upon death.
 
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Greymantle

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I've wondered about this, myself. Presumably, Hobbits, as an ofshoot of Men would share the gift of Iluvatar. As for the others... I've know idea. I was actually just thinking of posting a thread on this, myself. *Whistles for Telchar and Cian*
If anyone knows, they do.
 
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dj_fle

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Thanx

Thanx a lot,

I haven't read the Sillmarillion yet, but your info has really helped!
Now the ending of the greatest fantasy epic of our time is clear to me!
 

Greymantle

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I know I certainly didn't get it my first time through! Do read the Silmarillion, it's an amazing epic work, easily on par with LotR in magnitude.
Oh my, I'm forgetting my manners. Welcome to the Forum! :)
 

Cian

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I can't really hear internet whistles :) but thanks for the confidence vote Grey:

Yep, I would agree that Hobbits and Men have the same 'fate' deathwise. As for Dwarves, the Prof penned the interesting stuffs in The Later Quenta Silmarillion ~ "Aforetime the Noldor held that dying they returned unto the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief." The Dwarves believed that Aulë gathered them in Mandos in halls set apart for them, and there they wait: "... not in idleness but in the practice of crafts and the learning of yet deeper lore." They said that Aulë declared to their fathers that Ilúvatar will: "... hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End."

About Orcs and Trolls I don't know exactly. In any event Tolkien was still seemingly working out orc-origins regarding 'stock' even, in his "orc-essays", where he wrote:

"In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs immortal in the Elvish sense? Or Trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that Trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor. JRRT

Another passage on Orcs reads:
"These may then have even been mated with beasts (sterile!) -- and later Men. Their life span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the end." JRRT

And again on Trolls:
"The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls' (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slower. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types." JRRT

I would emphasize the 'searching nature' of these essays on Orcs and Trolls. Cheers
 

Greymantle

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Cool! Thanks....
I also remember now Thorin talking about how, in dying, he was journeying to the "halls of his fathers." Doubtless Tolkien just made this up in writing The Hobbit, but this seems to correspond with the Dwarves' belief Cian posted...
 

Flame of Utumno

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Isn't it ironic that the Elves and the Valar/Maia, those who are meant to have immortality in Arda end up living completely detached from it and that mortal man has taken over the earth....
I wonder what would have happened if the Numenoreans had not attacked Valinor and caused the separation of the Blessed Realm...
 

Walter

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Originally posted by Flame of Utumno
Isn't it ironic that the Elves and the Valar/Maia, those who are meant to have immortality in Arda end up living completely detached from it and that mortal man has taken over the earth....
Now, is that so?
 

Flame of Utumno

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Now, is that so?
[/QUOTE]

What would you know anyway?

Please enlighten all of us and give a more positive contribution to the forum.
 
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Grond

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Oh wondrous Flame of Utumno. Thou needest to give yon Walter a break. He is a valued contributor to the forum and while he liketh to "stir the pot", his input is valued "none the less".

So....... get over it. This forum is not a place to get pissed or take things personal. If someone jests with you, jest back don't stab back. :)
Having said all that, I will now address your post flame.

I agree that it is ironic that the Vala and Elves dwell in a place sundered from the Middle-earth they love so much. It is indeed fun to speculate as to what would have happened had the Numenorians not attempted to storm Aman and thus caused Eru to separate the spiritual from the physical... as it were.:)
 
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Flame of Utumno

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Grond,

Thanks for your correction and sorry if I offended anyone.
I really take this forum seriously as it is a great passion of mine. I just get frustrated when other members don't seem to take it as seriously.

Cheers,
Flame of Utumno
 

Brent

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Originally posted by Grond
Elves can die by wound or malice and when they die, they go to Mandos in the Halls of Waiting. Man is also believed to go under Mandos' jurisdiction upon death but to where their souls reside only Iluvator, Manwe and Mandos know for sure.]

[/B]
I'm not sure that is so. Mandos is the name of the place the actual Vala's name is Námo. I think you will find that the souls of men pass from the world, and where they go is unknown to the Valar. Perhaps Manwe knows ?
Certainly in Beren's case Manwe goes away to meditate and Illuvatar reveals to his mind that he cannot withold the gift of death from Beren BUT that Luthien may opt to return to ME with him and become mortal.
Sil. alludes to the fact that Men have some special connection with Illuvatar that is not know to the Valar. Because their theme in the music of creation was not clear ??.
 

Grond

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Hail and well met, Brent.

You are however, splitting hairs, as the saying goes. Namo is commonly referred to as Mandos as Varda is commonly referred to as Elbereth. The fate of Man is revealed to a degree in the Silmarillian but, alas, I am at work and don't have my copy close at hand. As soon as I get home, I will post the exact verbage from the text to support my assertion.
 

Brent

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I think not oh mighty weapon of morgoth.
You are correct in your statement but I'm not "splitting hairs". I was referring to the fact that the Halls of Mandos are a place. (and as I recall they don't belong to guy called Mandos it means Prison-fortress)
Elbereth is not, neither is your bosses "cognomen" Morgoth nor Curufinwe's Feanor.
Men alone go beyond the confines of the world. Ainur (eye-noor) that enter the world may not leave it.
I too am at work but I think you will find this in the Ainulindalë.
 

Greymantle

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Yes...they are a place... but as this is the dwelling of Namo he ends up being commonly called by that name. Sort of a reverse of Hades.
Anyways, if everyone went around calling each other by their true names, the books would be kind of messy.... "Hey, Meriadoc Brandibuck, grap that for me, will you?" "Oh, there you are, Olorin..."
 

Grond

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Oh Brent, thou art challenging a mighty loremaster of Middle-earth and thou wilt surely lose should you choose to do battle for I am Grond, Mighty Hammer of Melkor and...... thou art both correct and mistaken.
 

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