The Never Asked Question

Discussion in 'Research, Reference, Bibliographies' started by Lhunithiliel, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Although tons of questions have been asked and answered about Tolkien's art, let's presume that some of us have a question "burning" the mind and keeping us restless for no answer has been found so far.

    I offer this thread for these NEVER ASKED QUESTIONS .

    This thread, however, would need a very active surveillance by the Masters in Tolkien art, as THEY could decide whether a question can really be specified as "never asked".

    If the question asked in the thread has benn answered before, it is only enough to direct the asker where to look for the answer.

    If, however, the question seems to be never discussed upon, THEN! we shall have fun! ;) :p and the pleasure of discuss on it!

    PLEASE, before asking your question, FIRST check if it has not been answered already!
    Let's make this thread exciting! Not just another simple Q&A place.
     
  2. Ponte

    Ponte Man of the North

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    Were the people of Bór allowed to go Numenor after the war of wrath.
    (Perhaps al of there people were killed in the Nirnaeth but I don't think so.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2002
  3. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Poor Buu!
    Noone has answered your question yet!
    What shall we do?
    Unfortunately I don't know the answer.
     
  4. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    From the War of the Jewels: The Grey Annals
    The most probable thing is that they were not among those who went to Númenor, but maybe the descendants of their people were wandering or settled places outside of Beleriand.
     
  5. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    I don't think that this has been asked in TTF before:
    What is the "Osanwe-Kenta"?
    I leave this as a homework assignement to our fellow guildmembers.:)
     
    Belthil likes this.
  6. Khamul

    Khamul Anti-Conscience of TTF

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    Hmm, I dont really have another question that I can think of, but here is the answer to Maedhros' question. The Osanwe-Kenta is an Enquiry into Communication of Thought mentioned by Christopher Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring.
     
  7. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Sting and Maedhros, thank you for participating and providing answeres and questions!

    Now, I have a question:
    When the Elves woke on the coast of that lake with the difficult but amazingly beautiful name, is there any information of how many were they and how they looked like at that very first moment? And another thing: I remember descriptions of the different "folks" the Elves were devided into throughout their journey to Aman, but Tolkien at this point mentions some family relations already (brother, son etc..) How? Were Elves born already family related? I doubt it!
    To put things in a shorter way: How did the Elves got family related?
    Well, oractically I asked TWO questions not one...
    Anyway, I'd be glad if you could answer. ;)
     
  8. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    I'll get back to you on the bulk of your Elf question. I can answer that there were 144 original Elves (72 male and 72 female) that awoke on the shores of Lake Cuivienan. I'll research more into the details tomorrow.
     
  9. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    There were many years between the awakend of the elves and the journey to Aman... the numbers seemed much larger than 144 during the trip west so a few generations probably went by.

    I couldn't find section I wanted to quote..I'll look more for it though.
     
  10. Rangerdave

    Rangerdave He's Back!

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    I have absolutely no proof to back up this theory, and it will most likely arouse the wrath of Grond (since I made a exceptionally lame joke at his expense in the Blue wizards thread) but here goes.

    The Elves awoke in Middle Earth in pairs--one male and one female--each in seperate but relatively close locations surround the lake/sea. This way their earliest associations would be based on this pairings. Either that, or the family ties would have to be reckoned from the second generation, since the first would all be either one kindred or not at all.

    Also, we have no absolute way of knowing how many generations of Elves had awoken before the Valar discovered their whereabouts. Somehow I doubt that Finwe and Old King Greymantle were of the original generation. I don't have my copy of the Sil with me, but each King of the Elves (Olwe, Finwe, et al'we) seemed to have fairly large retinues, albeit not all were blood relations.


    Fantastic question Lhunithiliel. One worthy of the best minds the forum can call to bear. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. So I am afraid that your question will have to remain unanswered for the nonce.

    RD
     
  11. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Grond, how on MEarth do you know that the number of the FIRSTborn was 144? Is it stated somewhere? Interesting!
    I somehow thought the first elves were quite a large group...

    RD, interesting thoughts! But do you mean, the the Firstborn Elves dwelt for ages around Cuiniven (sp?) BEFORE they were discovered by the Valar? I'll have to check in the book but it seems unlikely to me. After all, they were the long expected "miracle"! They could not have been left unwatched and unattained...

    And the building up of the family relations among the first Elves is too a puzzle...
    I'll wait for some good theories.
     
  12. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    Well that is all I can find right now. but elsewhere it says more specificly that the Quendi have been awake for a long time before they were discovered..something like "many ages went by before the Valar discovered the Quendi. I will post it if I find it, unless someone beats me to it, I think it is stated after Orome tells the other Valar about the Quendi if anybody wants to look for it. I swear I read a couple days ago!:)


    The impression I got just from reading the Silmarillion is that at least 3,000 years had passed between the awakening and the reaching of Aman by the Vanyar.

    I don't just base this on the references to time but the feel of the numbers of the groups as they were decribed travling west. As Rangerdave said, I too do not think that it is told anywhere exactly how much time went by before they journeyed. I also do not think that any elf known by name can be proven as being among those firstborn. Not even cirdan or Thingol.

    Nowhere have I read any mention of the way they looked outside of what is told in The Silmarillion: They were greater in size.

    Opnion on related issue: I think that the nature of the elves personalities changed quite a bit during those first generations. What should have been the natural evolution of the elves was altered because Melkor weeded out certain ones. For example those elves with an over curious nature or tendency to wander where taken easier by Melkor. How many of the original had desendants who even made it to the first age?... had it not been for Melkor we may have then seen a whole different type(s) of elf, and who can say what they'd be like. Maybe they would have ended up staying in Middle-earth to the end, wandering the lands and meeting up with men and hobbits every chance they got?:D
     
  13. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Thank you very much, Confusticated!
    Your post cleared up some things that I must have forgotten or missed.

    How careless on part of the Valar and Eru himself then!
    To create and then to "forget" about their creation!
    Wasn't it however, said that Orome "AS IF " discovered the Elves?
    Then if this is true (it was somewhere in the text) then there must have been a purpose for doing so. I can't imagine the Valar and Eru doing smth. without purpose. What could it have been, then? WHY had they "AS IF " forgotten about the Firstborn Children?
    Could it be because the new race had to prove its vitality and adaptability? :confused:

    I hope we shall continue to search for the rightfull answer to my previous question.
    But here is another one from me:
    The Argonath statutes - they were built by the Numenoreans - Right?
    Can somebody provide information about who EXACTLY created them? And WHAT was the purpose?
    ---------
    Oh, that Lhunithiliel! Never stops asking! :mad: ;)
     
  14. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    It the Appenix A of The Lord of the Rings, it says that they were built by King Romandacil. Near the first part of The Third age..(I think).It gives more information than I am giving....But that is were it is mentioned so you can find it. I don't know of any other references to the building of Argonath.But....

    This is said in the Silmarillion...
    I'm not sure sure what that refers to but someone else here probably does. :D


    And about the Valar and elves....
    The Valar shaped and prepared the earth for the coming of the firstborn, but had nothing to do with their actually awakening. That was Eru's work. The Valar awaited the firstborn, they did look forward to them, but it seems to me that years where so many that even taking 5,000 (just random use of number here) years to discover them would really not be long when measured on the Valar's time scale...Probably this is much like a human awaiting something great for months, but not bothering to check for it for a couple days in a row and then BAMMM!! Someone rushes in and announces that it has arived..:)
    At the counsil...this happend....
    I think that is about the last the Valar were told as far as when the firstborn would be awakend. Orome happend upon them while he was out hunting down evil creatures....If there was meaning in that, I do not know what it was exactly. One could say that his finding the elves when he did might have actually saved them from being completely killed off by Melkor....one might say other things too.

    As far as proving vitality: I would say no, I do not think this needed to be proven.

    As far as proving adaptability: I do not htink they were proving adaptability, but as I indicated in my last post: The elves did adapt, and this may well have been on purpose.
    In fact I think it's more likely that there was a power keeping the elves from being discovered for awhile, rather than a power helping them to be discovered at last. Eru perhaps wanted these elves to learn about hard times? learn to protect themselves and prepare for what was to come. Now it's pretty clear that The Valar did not know what the elves where in for but we're talking about Eru here....He probably knew that the elves needed to learn these things early on....perhaps even (as I said earlier) weeding out certain ones. Eru himself may not have been sure exactly how to craft the elves, so he maybe tinkered around a bit and came up with several variations that each had their own strengths and weaknesses.....:eek: ......:D
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2002
  15. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    I continue to look for definitive dates linking the Awakening and the Finding by Orome. :)
     
  16. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    All the the times I've saw people around here quote things that I have not yet read, this one is the best. Thanks Grond. I had no idea that stuff existed. These books never fail to surprise me.
     
  17. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    I am not insinuating that this is Tolkien's final word on the matter. This is just one of his time lines for the "birth" of the Quendi and their later "discovery" by Orome. (Note that 335 years gives ample time for many generations of Quendi to be born.)
     
  18. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Grond, you NEVER stop amazing me with your knowledge!

    After I asked the question I started looking what I've got on the issue in my computer. I have almost all the texts here but I am still trying to make some order. I have almost finished reading a tale called "Coming of the Elves and the building of Kor" - I can't even figure out for now what book this is from. However, nothing specific is said there about what I had asked. It's such a beautiful tale, though!

    THANK YOU!
    I wonder how you find a piece of text when you need one.
    There are so many texts with so much information - some are tales, some are sort of articles by CrT... My head goes spinning! Sometimes I think I won't be able to put everything in order!
    However, I'll keep on reading... and putting everything in order.

    Say, Grond, have you read EVERYTHING by and about Tolkien? :confused:
    THANKS AGAIN!
    It was most educative!
    And thank you Confusticated as well! :p

    And about the Argonath - is the only information to be found in the Appendices to LOTR?
     
  19. gate7ole

    gate7ole Registered User

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    I'm too amazed by the Grond's ability to find the answers to our continuous curious questions.
    And I too have a question to you, Grond.
    Do you have all the books in electronical format and just copy-paste the stuff you quote?
    If yes, where did you find them? I find it very tiring to type all these paragraphs when I want to present proof for my argument.
     
  20. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    Yes and yes again. ;)

    It should also be noted that I own every one of Tolkien's Middle-earth works in hardback as well. My library is quite extensive and I intend to post a picture of it as soon as my remodeling is done and I get my study back in order. :)