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The Never Asked Question

Lhunithiliel

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Although tons of questions have been asked and answered about Tolkien's art, let's presume that some of us have a question "burning" the mind and keeping us restless for no answer has been found so far.

I offer this thread for these NEVER ASKED QUESTIONS .

This thread, however, would need a very active surveillance by the Masters in Tolkien art, as THEY could decide whether a question can really be specified as "never asked".

If the question asked in the thread has benn answered before, it is only enough to direct the asker where to look for the answer.

If, however, the question seems to be never discussed upon, THEN! we shall have fun! ;) :p and the pleasure of discuss on it!

PLEASE, before asking your question, FIRST check if it has not been answered already!
Let's make this thread exciting! Not just another simple Q&A place.
 

Ponte

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Were the people of Bór allowed to go Numenor after the war of wrath.
(Perhaps al of there people were killed in the Nirnaeth but I don't think so.)
 
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Lhunithiliel

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Poor Buu!
Noone has answered your question yet!
What shall we do?
Unfortunately I don't know the answer.
 

Maedhros

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From the War of the Jewels: The Grey Annals
§174 On the first sentence of the footnote to this paragraph see the commentary on §171. With the following remarks in the footnote concerning the descendants of the people of Bór in Eriador in the Second Age cf. QS chapter 16, §15 (V.310-11): 'From that day [Nírnaith Arnediad] the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses, the peoples of Hador, and Bëor, and Haleth; for the sons of Bór, Boromir, Borlas, and Borthandos, who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need, all perished in that battle, and they left no heirs.' This suggests that the people of Bór ceased to be of any account after 472; but it is perhaps to be presumed in any case that these Men of Eriador were a branch of that people who never entered Beleriand.
The most probable thing is that they were not among those who went to Númenor, but maybe the descendants of their people were wandering or settled places outside of Beleriand.
 

Maedhros

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I don't think that this has been asked in TTF before:
What is the "Osanwe-Kenta"?
I leave this as a homework assignement to our fellow guildmembers.:)
 

Khamul

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Hmm, I dont really have another question that I can think of, but here is the answer to Maedhros' question. The Osanwe-Kenta is an Enquiry into Communication of Thought mentioned by Christopher Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring.
 

Lhunithiliel

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Sting and Maedhros, thank you for participating and providing answeres and questions!

Now, I have a question:
When the Elves woke on the coast of that lake with the difficult but amazingly beautiful name, is there any information of how many were they and how they looked like at that very first moment? And another thing: I remember descriptions of the different "folks" the Elves were devided into throughout their journey to Aman, but Tolkien at this point mentions some family relations already (brother, son etc..) How? Were Elves born already family related? I doubt it!
To put things in a shorter way: How did the Elves got family related?
Well, oractically I asked TWO questions not one...
Anyway, I'd be glad if you could answer. ;)
 

Grond

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I'll get back to you on the bulk of your Elf question. I can answer that there were 144 original Elves (72 male and 72 female) that awoke on the shores of Lake Cuivienan. I'll research more into the details tomorrow.
 

Confusticated

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There were many years between the awakend of the elves and the journey to Aman... the numbers seemed much larger than 144 during the trip west so a few generations probably went by.

I couldn't find section I wanted to quote..I'll look more for it though.
 

Rangerdave

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I have absolutely no proof to back up this theory, and it will most likely arouse the wrath of Grond (since I made a exceptionally lame joke at his expense in the Blue wizards thread) but here goes.

The Elves awoke in Middle Earth in pairs--one male and one female--each in seperate but relatively close locations surround the lake/sea. This way their earliest associations would be based on this pairings. Either that, or the family ties would have to be reckoned from the second generation, since the first would all be either one kindred or not at all.

Also, we have no absolute way of knowing how many generations of Elves had awoken before the Valar discovered their whereabouts. Somehow I doubt that Finwe and Old King Greymantle were of the original generation. I don't have my copy of the Sil with me, but each King of the Elves (Olwe, Finwe, et al'we) seemed to have fairly large retinues, albeit not all were blood relations.


Fantastic question Lhunithiliel. One worthy of the best minds the forum can call to bear. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. So I am afraid that your question will have to remain unanswered for the nonce.

RD
 

Lhunithiliel

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Grond, how on MEarth do you know that the number of the FIRSTborn was 144? Is it stated somewhere? Interesting!
I somehow thought the first elves were quite a large group...

RD, interesting thoughts! But do you mean, the the Firstborn Elves dwelt for ages around Cuiniven (sp?) BEFORE they were discovered by the Valar? I'll have to check in the book but it seems unlikely to me. After all, they were the long expected "miracle"! They could not have been left unwatched and unattained...

And the building up of the family relations among the first Elves is too a puzzle...
I'll wait for some good theories.
 

Confusticated

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Long they dwelt in their first home by the water under stars, and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.
Well that is all I can find right now. but elsewhere it says more specificly that the Quendi have been awake for a long time before they were discovered..something like "many ages went by before the Valar discovered the Quendi. I will post it if I find it, unless someone beats me to it, I think it is stated after Orome tells the other Valar about the Quendi if anybody wants to look for it. I swear I read a couple days ago!:)


The impression I got just from reading the Silmarillion is that at least 3,000 years had passed between the awakening and the reaching of Aman by the Vanyar.

I don't just base this on the references to time but the feel of the numbers of the groups as they were decribed travling west. As Rangerdave said, I too do not think that it is told anywhere exactly how much time went by before they journeyed. I also do not think that any elf known by name can be proven as being among those firstborn. Not even cirdan or Thingol.

Nowhere have I read any mention of the way they looked outside of what is told in The Silmarillion: They were greater in size.

Opnion on related issue: I think that the nature of the elves personalities changed quite a bit during those first generations. What should have been the natural evolution of the elves was altered because Melkor weeded out certain ones. For example those elves with an over curious nature or tendency to wander where taken easier by Melkor. How many of the original had desendants who even made it to the first age?... had it not been for Melkor we may have then seen a whole different type(s) of elf, and who can say what they'd be like. Maybe they would have ended up staying in Middle-earth to the end, wandering the lands and meeting up with men and hobbits every chance they got?:D
 

Lhunithiliel

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Thank you very much, Confusticated!
Your post cleared up some things that I must have forgotten or missed.

How careless on part of the Valar and Eru himself then!
To create and then to "forget" about their creation!
Wasn't it however, said that Orome "AS IF " discovered the Elves?
Then if this is true (it was somewhere in the text) then there must have been a purpose for doing so. I can't imagine the Valar and Eru doing smth. without purpose. What could it have been, then? WHY had they "AS IF " forgotten about the Firstborn Children?
Could it be because the new race had to prove its vitality and adaptability? :confused:

I hope we shall continue to search for the rightfull answer to my previous question.
But here is another one from me:
The Argonath statutes - they were built by the Numenoreans - Right?
Can somebody provide information about who EXACTLY created them? And WHAT was the purpose?
---------
Oh, that Lhunithiliel! Never stops asking! :mad: ;)
 

Confusticated

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It the Appenix A of The Lord of the Rings, it says that they were built by King Romandacil. Near the first part of The Third age..(I think).It gives more information than I am giving....But that is were it is mentioned so you can find it. I don't know of any other references to the building of Argonath.But....

This is said in the Silmarillion...
In Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion, but they shared the realm between them and their thrones were set side by side in the Great Hall of Osgiliath. These were the chief dwellings of the Númenóreans in Gondor, but other works marvellous and strong they built in the land in the days of their power, at the Argonath, and at Aglarond, and at Erech; and in the circle of Angrenost, which Men called Isengard, they made the pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.
I'm not sure sure what that refers to but someone else here probably does. :D


And about the Valar and elves....
The Valar shaped and prepared the earth for the coming of the firstborn, but had nothing to do with their actually awakening. That was Eru's work. The Valar awaited the firstborn, they did look forward to them, but it seems to me that years where so many that even taking 5,000 (just random use of number here) years to discover them would really not be long when measured on the Valar's time scale...Probably this is much like a human awaiting something great for months, but not bothering to check for it for a couple days in a row and then BAMMM!! Someone rushes in and announces that it has arived..:)
It came to pass that the Valar held council, for they became troubled by the tidings that Yavanna and Oromë brought from the Outer lands; and Yavanna spoke before the Valar, saying: 'Ye mighty of Arda, the Vision of Ilúvatar was brief and soon taken away, so that maybe we cannot guess within a narrow count of days the hour appointed. Yet be sure of this: the hour approaches, and within this age our hope shall be revealed, and the Children shall awake
At the counsil...this happend....
But at the bidding of Manwë Mandos spoke, and he said: 'In this age the Children of Ilúvatar shall come indeed, but they come not yet. Moreover it is doom that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness, and shall look first upon the stars. Great light shall be for their waning. To Varda ever shall they call at need.'
I think that is about the last the Valar were told as far as when the firstborn would be awakend. Orome happend upon them while he was out hunting down evil creatures....If there was meaning in that, I do not know what it was exactly. One could say that his finding the elves when he did might have actually saved them from being completely killed off by Melkor....one might say other things too.

As far as proving vitality: I would say no, I do not think this needed to be proven.

As far as proving adaptability: I do not htink they were proving adaptability, but as I indicated in my last post: The elves did adapt, and this may well have been on purpose.
In fact I think it's more likely that there was a power keeping the elves from being discovered for awhile, rather than a power helping them to be discovered at last. Eru perhaps wanted these elves to learn about hard times? learn to protect themselves and prepare for what was to come. Now it's pretty clear that The Valar did not know what the elves where in for but we're talking about Eru here....He probably knew that the elves needed to learn these things early on....perhaps even (as I said earlier) weeding out certain ones. Eru himself may not have been sure exactly how to craft the elves, so he maybe tinkered around a bit and came up with several variations that each had their own strengths and weaknesses.....:eek: ......:D
 
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Grond

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from HoMe XI, The War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar
While their first bodies were being made from the ‘flesh of Arda’ the Quendi slept ‘in the womb of the Earth’, beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown. But the First Elves (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her ‘destined spouse’. But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in strange places. These three Elf-fathers are named in the ancient tales Imin, Tata, and Enel. They awoke in that order, but with little time between each; and from them, say the Eldar, the words for one, two, and three were made: the oldest of all numerals.

Imin, Tata and Enel awoke before their spouses, and the first thing that they saw was the stars, for they woke in the early twilight before dawn. And the next thing they saw was their destined spouses lying asleep on the green sward beside them. Then they were so enamoured of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to ‘think of words’ to speak and sing in. And being impatient they could not wait but woke up their spouses. Thus, the Eldar say, the first thing that each elf-woman saw was her spouse, and her love for him was her first love; and her love and reverence for the wonders of Arda came later.

Now after a time, when they had dwelt together a little, and had devised many words, Imin and Iminyë, Tata and Tatië, Enel and Enelyë walked together, and left the green dell of their waking, and they came soon to another larger dell and found there six pairs of Quendi, and the stars were again shining in the morrow-dim and the elf-men were just waking.

Then Imin claimed to be the eldest and to have the right of first choice; and he said: ‘I choose these twelve to be my companions.’ And the elf-men dwelt together a little and had learned many words and devised more, they walked on together, and soon in another even deeper and wider hollow they found nine pairs of Quendi, and the elf-men had just waked in the starlight.

Then Tata claimed the right of second choice, and he said: ‘I choose these eighteen to be my companions.’ Then again the elf-men woke their spouses, and they dwelt and spoke together, and devised many new sounds and longer words; and then the thirty-six walked abroad together, until they came to a grove of birches by a stream, and there they found twelve pairs of Quendi, and the elf-men likewise were just standing up, and looking at the stars through the birch boughs.

Then Enel claimed the right of third choice, and he said: ‘I choose these twenty-four to be my companions.’ Again the elf-men woke their spouses; and for many days the sixty Elves dwelt by the stream, and soon they began to make verse and song to the music of the water.

At length they all set out together again. But Imin noticed that each time they had found more Quendi than before, and he thought to himself: ‘I have only twelve companions (although I am the eldest)); I will take a later choice.’ Soon they came to a sweet-smelling firwood on a hill-side, and there they found eighteen pairs of Quendi, and all were still sleeping. It was still night and clouds were in the sky. But before dawn a wind came, and roused the elf-men, and they woke and were amazed at the stars; for all the clouds were blown away and the stars were bright from east to west. And for a long time the eighteen new Quendi took no heed of the others, but looked at the lights of Menel. But when at last they turned their back to earth they beheld their spouses and woke them to look at the stars, crying to them elen, elen! And so the stars got their name.

Now Imin said: ‘I will not choose again yet’; and Tata, therefore, chose these thirty-six to be his companions; and they were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir-trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.

And the ninety-six Quendi now spoke together, and the newly-waked devised many new and beautiful words, and many cunning artifices of speech; and they laughed, and danced upon the hill-side, until at last they desired to find more companions. Then they all set out again together, until they came to a lake dark in the twilight; and there was a great cliff about it upon the east-side, and a waterfall came down from the height, and the stars glittered on the foam. But the elf-men were already bathing in the waterfall, and they had waked their spouses. There were twenty-four pairs; but as yet they had formed no speech, though they sang sweetly and their voices echoed in the stone, mingling with the rush of the falls.

But again Imin withheld his choice, thinking ‘next time it will be a great company’. Therefore Enel said: ‘I have the choice, and I choose these forty-eight to be my companions.’ And the hundred and forty-four Quendi dwelt long together by the lake, until they all became of one mind and speech, and were glad.

At length Imin said: ‘It is time now that we should go on and seek more companions.’ But most of the others were content. So Imin and Iminyë and their twelve companions set out, and they walked long by day and by twilight in the country about the lake, near which all the Quendi had awakened – for which reason it is called Cuiviénen. But they never found any more companions, for the tale of the First Elves was complete.

And so it was that the Quendi ever after reckoned in twelves, and that 144 was for long their highest number, so that in none of their later tongues was there any common name for a greater number. And so also it came about that the ‘Companions of Imin’ or the Eldest Company (of whom came the Vanyar) were nonetheless only fourteen in all; but the ‘Companions of Tata’ (of whom came the Noldor) were fifty-six in all; but the ‘Companions of Enel’ although the Youngest Company were the largest; from them came the Teleri (or Lindar), and they were in the beginning seventy-four in all.

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at ‘morrow-dim’ and at ‘even-dim’, were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda. But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.
I continue to look for definitive dates linking the Awakening and the Finding by Orome. :)
 

Confusticated

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All the the times I've saw people around here quote things that I have not yet read, this one is the best. Thanks Grond. I had no idea that stuff existed. These books never fail to surprise me.
 

Grond

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from HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Arda

1050
$36 Last of all Varda made the sign of bright stars that is called the Valakirka, the Sickle of the Gods, and this she hung about the North as a threat unto Utumno and a token of the doom of Melkor.
$37 In that hour, it is said, the Quendi, the Elder Children of Iluvatar, awoke: these Men have named the Elves, and many other names. By the Waters of Awakening, Kuivienen, they rose 'from the sleep of Iluvatar and their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight, and have revered Varda Elentarie above all the Valar.
$38 In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Kuivienen there is no returning. But it is said among the Quendi that it lay far off in Middle-earth, eastward of Endon (which is the midmost point) and northward; and it was a bay in the Inland Sea of Helkar. And that sea stood where aforetime the roots of the mountain of Illuin had been ere Melkor overthrew it. Many waters flowed down thither from heights in the East, and the first sound that was heard by the ears of the Elves was the sound of water flowing, and the sound of water falling over stone.
$39 Long the Quendi dwelt in their first home by the water under stars and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. And they named themselves the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.
$40 At this time also, it is said, Melian, fairest of the Maiar, desiring to look upon the stars, went up upon Taniquetil; and suddenly she desired to see Middle-earth, and she left Valinor and walked in the twilight.

1085.
$41 And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years) it chanced that Orome rode to Endon in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helkar and passed under the shadows of the Orokarni, the Mountains of the East. And on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing and then stood still. And Orome wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.
$42 Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And when Orome looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars.

The original manuscript page was interpolated at this point, a passage being written in the-margin as follows:
Yet by after-knowledge the masters of lore say sadly that Orome was not, mayhap, the first of the Great Ones to look upon the Elves, for Melkor was on the watch, and his spies were many. And it is thought that lurking near his servants had led astray some of the Quendi that ventured afield, and they took them as captives to Utumno, and there enslaved them. Of these slaves it is held came the Orkor that were afterward chief foes of the Eldar. And Melkor's lies were soon abroad, so that whispers were heard among the Quendi, warning them that if any of their kindred passed away into the shadows and were seen no more, they must beware of a fell huntsman on a great horse, for he it was that carried them off to devour them. Hence it was that at the approach of Orome many of the Quendi fled and hid themselves.
I am not insinuating that this is Tolkien's final word on the matter. This is just one of his time lines for the "birth" of the Quendi and their later "discovery" by Orome. (Note that 335 years gives ample time for many generations of Quendi to be born.)
 

Lhunithiliel

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Grond, you NEVER stop amazing me with your knowledge!

After I asked the question I started looking what I've got on the issue in my computer. I have almost all the texts here but I am still trying to make some order. I have almost finished reading a tale called "Coming of the Elves and the building of Kor" - I can't even figure out for now what book this is from. However, nothing specific is said there about what I had asked. It's such a beautiful tale, though!

THANK YOU!
I wonder how you find a piece of text when you need one.
There are so many texts with so much information - some are tales, some are sort of articles by CrT... My head goes spinning! Sometimes I think I won't be able to put everything in order!
However, I'll keep on reading... and putting everything in order.

Say, Grond, have you read EVERYTHING by and about Tolkien? :confused:
THANKS AGAIN!
It was most educative!
And thank you Confusticated as well! :p

And about the Argonath - is the only information to be found in the Appendices to LOTR?
 

gate7ole

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I'm too amazed by the Grond's ability to find the answers to our continuous curious questions.
And I too have a question to you, Grond.
Do you have all the books in electronical format and just copy-paste the stuff you quote?
If yes, where did you find them? I find it very tiring to type all these paragraphs when I want to present proof for my argument.
 

Grond

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Originally posted by gate7ole
I'm too amazed by the Grond's ability to find the answers to our continuous curious questions.
And I too have a question to you, Grond.
Do you have all the books in electronical format and just copy-paste the stuff you quote?
If yes, where did you find them? I find it very tiring to type all these paragraphs when I want to present proof for my argument.
Yes and yes again. ;)

It should also be noted that I own every one of Tolkien's Middle-earth works in hardback as well. My library is quite extensive and I intend to post a picture of it as soon as my remodeling is done and I get my study back in order. :)
 

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